On or about 9/16/2004 2:37 PM, the one known as Horror Vacui was rumoured to have uttered...
> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:57:17 -0500 > Wyatt wrote: > > >>On Thursday 16 September 2004 05:17, Scott Robbins wrote: >> >> >>>So, even gurus (like my friend, I'm no guru) join you in your rant. >> >>Even the gurus. I'm sure, would like to actually *use* their computer >>once in awhile instead of spending all the time just getting it to do >>something or something else the right way. > > > We don't, we just use it. If something doesn't work, we go and fix it. Good. That's the solution I was looking for. Just fix it! There you go, problem solved! I've Googled through about a hundred hits now and none of the suggestions appear to be certain - in fact some of them claim outright that a mistake can cause disastrous results. Getting right on that fixing, sir. > I'm not the guru Scott is talking about, not even a guru, but I pretend > being one because of your comment - implying that since I can use all > the hardware in my computer (plus a couple of other things, for instance > my remote control), I must be something like an ïberguru. I can use all the hardware but the soundcard. It's just that half of it doesn't work to it's capabilities. Sorta like using a Mercedes to drive to the store once a month. > > >>MS has its faults, but, >>for the most part, a computer illiterate gran'ma or a young child can >>turn it on outta the box and get it to do most of the stuff it's >>supposed to without tech support. > > > Ok, now stop and think about it. Picture that computer illiterate > gran'ma buying, say, a modem. "There you are, granny, your new modem. > Oh, and by the way, the modem is not supported by windows." And now tell > me how long Craptech, the manufacturer of the modem, would stay in > business? Woopsy, it took you too long - it's already gone. Most of your modems *would* be supported under Windows - *particularly* mainstream models. I'm not talking about arcane or obsolete hardware here. ATI is a major graphics card manufacturer and Creative Labs is a major sound card manufacturer. Certainly in the top five in their respective industries, I am sure. Both cards are widely available and probably selling by the millions as we speak. > When I go to a shop and ask whether the hardware xxx is supported by > linux, I get blank stares, get suspected of being illiterate (they read > me the system requirements off the box), and very rarely I get a useful > information from a fellow linuxer working there. Is not providing linux > driver a risk for the hardware producer? Do they care? Well, the blank stares and reading lessons are better than the flaming. You are just about to make the point for me. > > By ranting about lacking hardware support as linux' fault, you're > missing the target (and making a bit of an ass of yourself). 'Nuff said. Reason number three that Linux will never overtake Windows. Every Linux user that can get his system to work thinks that they have the right to verbally abuse and belittle every Windows user who can't. Shouldn't > you rather rant about the hardware producers not providing drivers for > their products? That indeed was part of the rant. Sometimes you need to look further into a piece of writing than just the literal words. It is most definitely a compound problem. Is the option of trying new drivers that you talked > about in a previous post, "fully available with a simple download and > click to install" a sign of superiority of Windows' design, or rather a > consequence of the dominant position on the market, I suspect both and neither. That part of Window's design, while not perfect, is light years ahead of Linux right now. Sadly, many other aspects of the design will never be superior - or even competitive. Market share makes vendors want to pool their resources into Windows, BUT, Windows got where it is by one simple philosophy. Bill Gates realized that if he could make a computer user friendly and make it work without inordinate technical expertise that he could own the market. It took awhile, but he was right. as seen on the > example of Craptech? And is the lacking support for some hardware in > Linux a proof of its inferior design? What argument would you have left > if all hardware manufacturers took the example of Nvidia and provided > drivers as a runnable script, "fully available with a simple download > and click to install". I wouldn't have an argument. I'd have a happily running Linux system and there would be no need for this discussion. I intended that to be my entire point, but, obviously, I didn't make myself clear to a few. Well, they aren't. What can Linux do about it? > Nothing, untill it's so widespread that companies like Craptech can go > bankrupt for not providing Linux drivers. I disagree, but since my Linux isn't working one hundred percent, I suppose I'm not qualified to speculate. > Just consider what it takes to write a driver for Linux. First of all, > you have to buy the hardware - you can't code based on assumptions. Then > you have to do extensive testing, trying to find out how it's working. > Not only are hardware manufacturers not supplying drivers, they're also > being extremely unhelpful by not releasing any informations (some have > even tried to sue developers for "reverse-engineering" their product). > And only then, after this detective work, you can start the development > - coding, testing, bugsquashing... That is, if you have the time, since > you're doing it in your free time, unpaid. And then you send it to > Linus, who has a life to live himself instead of working all day for > your convenience packaging the driver so you can install it with a > single click. Linus puts the driver into the kernel tree, so you have to > compile it yourself (or use the precompiled module supplied by your > distro makers). Okay, it amazes me that you can see the difficulty for someone experienced with Linux, programming, and hardware, but you think I'm silly for not "just fixing it" as a self-taught, moderately-advanced user. Isn't that a tad on the hypocritical side? > I must say that like Scott, I'm a little surprised to read about such > problems. Linux hardware support (and configuration) is by no means > ideal, but yours must be a case of really bad luck. Any recent-ish > distro does, IMHO, a hell of a job recognising the hardware and > automagically configuring itself to use it. LiveCD distros like Knoppix > autoconfigure themselves while booting, and start faster off slow media > like a CD then W2k starts off a hard disk. Yet Knoppix lets me use all > the hardware in my computer (including the tv-card) without > configuration or manual tweaking. We use the Knoppix CD at work to > troubleshoot windows hardware problems. My system works - to a degree. I've gotten further on this distro than any of the ones before. It is much improved. My first two bouts with Redhat were a disaster. I never did get those to dual boot and I still never got them to work in a single boot environment. I had serious issues with those. Earlier versions of SuSe and Mandrake went better. I got them to dual boot. I used Knoppix both times first just to see if I was in the ballpark hardware-wise. I had high hopes, but eventually found that the same issues kept cropping up. Sound and graphics have never worked optimally - or even suitably - in any Linux distro I've tried on the three computers I've tried it on. Blame who/what you want for the problem, but that won't solve it for me and I suspect it won't get solved when all the time is devoted to blaming <insert lame user, overbearing OS, lame hardware manufacturer here> for the problems. > So let's stop talking about problems and start solving them. Yes, sir. Still fixing, sir. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> $9.95 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/J8kdrA/y20IAA/yQLSAA/0XFolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this list, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] & you will be removed. Yahoo! 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