Paul Saenz: The primary role Linux plays is that of a FOSS OS. If you are too poor to upgrade to the lastest version of CEMENT, Linux will be there. If you need more control over your OS, that is right...Linux! We need to stop putting Linux in terms of industry and measuring it's success based on some OSX:Window$:Linux ratio. Desktop Linux is growing and it's rate of growth has increased substantially in the last decade. Everything else is fluff IMO.
Dino: Your discovery that X has issues is endearing. I too believe the idea of Wayland is an improvement over X, however, I do not like Wayland's license (LGPLv2), I prefer GPLv3. In the end, Canonical's move to Wayland will probably be a lasting improvement, especially since Wayland is (supposedly) playing nice with Nvidia and ATI. I do not share in your joy for Unity, at least not yet. Again with the "Linux is a failure on the Desktop", I repeat my previous statement, the rate of change with Linux desktops is increase. Furthermore, people have said Fedora is likely to switch to Wayland (by default). If the adherence to X is the end of Desktop Linux then don't worry just yet, there goes two popular desktop distos taking the Dino path. The community is sorry that their move from X could not be more consistent with your schedule. In all seriousness, for graphics, Unix-like systems use X almost universally. A change away from X is a big deal and I suspect this is not a new idea. Such a change effects the entire GUI community and really which competitive alternative, a ready to drop in solution with the proper licensing, existed 5 years ago. Sure there have been attempts but has there been a true alternative? I do not know. That Canonical has stepped up with Wayland and Unity is a nice surprise; lets see how it goes before we throw in the towel. Trevor The funny thing about Linux rants is that they tend to start with the basic Desktop user in mind and end with a conversation from a PowerUser/Dev's point of view. Much of what we are discussing is of no concern to my grandma's Linux experience. I would like to avoid a conversation regarding the debacle that is .NET, security, the lack of standards in FOSS, why I hate OSX and apple script, etc. I think we agree on the broad strokes. What I will say is, lover it or hate it, that is the nature of the FOSS. "I have OSX apps that are 4+ years old that work just fine on 10.6." Im sure there are Linux programs that are more than 4 years old. Consider the downsides of O$X and Window$ stability. With every version of Window$ the average user almost always needs to buy a new computer. New versions of Window$ are slower and many things, from the users' point view, change. That is not stable. With every version of OSX, one needs to have a MAC. Sure, there are programming issues with FOSS GUIs but we rarely need to buy a new computer! Since the core O$X/Window$ development is MUCH slower than that of Linux, and with hardware OEMs devoted to non-Linux, it is predictable to see these proprietary alternatives running a more stable environment on specific collections of desktop components. Many times, when Linux and other FOSS packages are upgraded the OS gets faster, bugs are resolved, non-supported hardware starts working and improvements tend to last. Linux kernel development has also become more stable from version to version. I conjecture the stability of Desktop Linux is growing and the rate of change with this growth is increasing. All in all, the derivative of Desktop Linux, with respect to use and stability over time, is going up. Redhat has said they are not interested in supporting a Linux Desktop for the masses. I have no compassion for the RHEL Desktop maintainers. Chris... On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Trevor Benedict <mre...@gmail.com> wrote: > One thing great about OSX and Windows are there API's. YES there is a lack > of choice(kind of, QT, GTK run on both). But its a very stable platform to > build upon. Yes OSX did make a huge API change with Carbon and Coco, but it > was a move to a much better API. > Windows, well is trying to get out of the Win32 hell that it put its self > into with .NET. > > The only thing 'stable' in Linux is gcc, glibc, GTK, QT, dbus, openssl. > Hell the init system is in total flux again, and the Kernel ABI/API's can > change every few months. > > I have OSX apps that are 4+ years old that work just fine on 10.6. Unless a > Linux desktop app has its own static libs, what are the chances its going to > work in 4+ years the very first time you try to run it? > I feel sorry for the RHEL maintainers. And for the people(my self included) > that have to use such a system. Going from one version to the next will > break binary apps, because so much has changed in the years between the 2 > versions. > > OSX http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/navigation/ > Windows http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ff818516.aspx > Linux http://dev.linuxfoundation.org/navigator/browse/module.php > > You look at the Linux page, and it pretty much answers why the Linux > Desktop will never make it. > > -- Trevor Benedict > - MrEcho > > > > On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 7:43 PM, Dino K <socalli...@cloudcomp.info> wrote: > >> You missed the point, X is the problem here, as a display platform it's >> got a lot of shortcomings... FLASH is only an example of what runs on top of >> that... like Aqua as part of OSX is great for a consumer desktop, it >> enables good media playback and refined fonts. >> >> The adherence to X, regardless of the display manager (gnome, KDE, etc) >> will be the death of Linux on the desktop, you can argue all you want Dark >> Prince... the fact is, Linux is a failure on the desktop so far and not >> because the people writing the apps for it but the underlying platform... I >> support Unity and Canonical's move away from X, I cannot re-iterate this >> enough... but I also think they should've done it 5 years ago at least... >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Chris Penn <cantorm...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> "...FLASH support sucks, well not only FLASH but all media >>> presentation sucks on Linux, it was not built with media presentation >>> in mind, but built for security over network presentation, this >>> concept is an archaic concept and needs to go." >>> >>> Again, Flash support is an adobe issue. I am not sure why people >>> insist that Flash issues are due to the FOSS community. I do not have >>> a problem with flash except on 64bit Linux (which is resolvable most >>> of the time). Youtube works fine. What do you mean by 'all media >>> presentation'? Codecs, movie/music playback? PPT files? >>> >>> Chris... >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Dino K <socalli...@cloudcomp.info> >>> wrote: >>> > I think this pretty much sums up the state of linux mentality... the >>> > leftists and the rightists... >>> > >>> http://askubuntu.com/questions/9424/why-is-ubuntu-11-04-switching-to-unity >>> > IMO X is a large part of the reason why Linux is still a failure on the >>> > desktop, it's clunky, complex, and unwieldy and is a large part of the >>> > reason FLASH support sucks, well not only FLASH but all media >>> presentation >>> > sucks on Linux, it was not built with media presentation in mind, but >>> built >>> > for security over network presentation, this concept is an archaic >>> concept >>> > and needs to go. >>> > The search for the next display platform/driver is ongoing but IMO will >>> be >>> > very very late to the game... >>> > -DK >>> > >>> > >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> LinuxUsers mailing list >>> >> LinuxUsers@socallinux.org >>> >> http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > LinuxUsers mailing list >>> > LinuxUsers@socallinux.org >>> > http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> "As we open our newspapers or watch our television screens, we seem to >>> be continually assaulted by the fruits of Mankind's stupidity." >>> -Roger Penrose >>> _______________________________________________ >>> LinuxUsers mailing list >>> LinuxUsers@socallinux.org >>> http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> LinuxUsers mailing list >> LinuxUsers@socallinux.org >> http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > LinuxUsers mailing list > LinuxUsers@socallinux.org > http://socallinux.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linuxusers > > -- "As we open our newspapers or watch our television screens, we seem to be continually assaulted by the fruits of Mankind's stupidity." -Roger Penrose
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