Dear Martyn
You are quite right that more serious players in recent years have begun to
experiment with the thumb-out technique, but I am afraid that it will take a
long time to percolate into the wider lute playing world. In the last
decade, I've seen very few performances using this technique, though
certainly more than I would have done 20 years ago. In my experience, the
technique is more recognised than practised. Teaching on summer schools, I
make a point of talking about historical RH techniques at some point, and
have quite often encountered surprise and even hostility from students
because what I was suggesting flew in the face of the teachings or
performing practice of their favourite lute "guru".
This thread is entitled "RH on the bridge"-in fact, much of the C17th
evidence about this technique suggests a position in which the RH little
finger rests below the bridge. Mace suggests putting it "close under the
bridge, about the first, 2nd, 3rd , or 4th strings".If you actually try
this, it results in a position in which the fingers are more or less at
right angles to the strings. My own experience of this is that the square on
hand position further sharpens the sound already made sharp by the fact that
the hand is plucking very close to the bridge. I think our ideas about
"good" tone on the lute are due for a shake-up!
I have an 11 course lute made in 1983, which has a very honourable dirt mark
below the bridge caused by years of playing in just this way. I feel that
the age of the instrument has a lot to do with it. Mace was writing about an
era which valued old Bologna lutes made in the early C16th, and certainly
well played in by 1676!
The technique is also associated in my mind with the "new" tunings of the
C17th. These tunings can be regarded as involving lowering the upper courses
of the "old" tuning, and it seems probable to me that they developed in just
this way. If you take a standard ten course lute in "old" tuning and lower
courses 1 and 2 to give the "sharp" tuning, or 1,2,and three for "flat"you
can find, perhaps rather to your surprise that it sounds quite good in spite
of the tension imbalances. In particular, that the first course sounds much
less spiky. You might then want to leave it at that pitch, and simply put
slightly thicker strings on the two upper courses. I've ended up discovering
that when I do so, I no longer need the extra tension on courses 1 and 2
that are fairly standard in modern string schedules, probably because the
strings in question are now well below their breaking pitch. Of course, this
solution to the problem flies in the face of the high nominal pitches given
for lutes by Mace and (if I remember correctly), Talbot.
Your point about theobos and double stringing reminds me that perhaps I
should try it when my new one comes along!
Martin (Eastwell!)
On 15/12/07 13:25, "Martyn Hodgson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Martin,
>
> Your belief that thumb out is not used today ('discarded'), if I understand
> you right, is surprising since it seems directly contrary to the latest
> informed views. It is certainly true that in the very first big bang of lute
> playing in the 20thC (the 1960/70s), thumb out was the general technique and
> that this soon changed as some lutenists looked at early 16thC icongraphy and
> 'discovered' the thumb in/under position. This also conveniently enabled
> lutenists to distance themselves from the modern 'classical' guitar which
> became something of a badge of honour amongst them..........
>
> However, in the last decade or so there has been a healthy return to base
> hand positions more on what the 'Old Ones' actually did (contemporary
> descriptions as well as iconography); so that the change to thumb out starting
> in the second half of the 16thC and its almost general application by the
> 17thC is now recognised, directly contrary to what I understand is your
> belief. The latest development concerning playing much closer to the bridge
> is but a further step along this road of rediscovery. It also enables us to
> play double strung theorbos with greater force thus I hope spelling, if not
> the end then, a reduction in the current widespread use amongst many continuo
> players of single strung theorboes (you'll be aware that the majoirty of
> extant instruments and iconography shows double strings on the fingerboard).
> As a final aside, it also enables us to make some sense of why the row of
> jacks closest to the bridge on English harpsichords were called the 'lute' or
> theorbo' stop.
>
> I'm also not so sure about bridge string spacing: what sort of spacing are
> we talking about?
>
> regards
>
> Martyn
>
>
> Martin Eastwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As someone who plays both thumb in and out, I'm surprised at the suggestion
> that thumb out is harder. In my experience, the fact that the right hand is
> static in thumb out playing makes the business of integrating chords with
> single lines very much easier, especially when I'm playing the nice 8 course
> Martin Shepherd made for me!
>
> There is no great mystery about thumb out-it is the technique everyone used
> 30 years ago, but discarded. We are just not used to it today. If we have
> difficulties now, it could have something to do with modern instruments
> being optimised for the earlier technique. As an example, I have played
> quite a number of 7-10 course lutes which have been set up with more space
> between the courses than typical historical instruments. This can make thumb
> under playing easier, but makes crossing strings much harder for the thumb
> out player.
>
>
>
> Martin (Eastwell)
>
>
>
> On 15/12/07 09:44, "Martin Shepherd" wrote:
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I just found that I wrote this (in the context of explaining thumb-in,
>> thumb-out) a while ago:
>>
>>> Thumb-out is more difficult, and I think we have some way to
>>> go before we really master it (though Nigel North seems to have sorted
>>> it out). It is further complicated by the "correct" position of the
>>> hand being so close to the bridge, a position which usually yields
>>> disappointing results, whatever kind of strings are used. But we're
>>> working on it.....
>>
>> Well, working on it indeed. Rob MacKillop has just recorded a piece
>> with the little finger on the bridge, and while I'm not so keen on the
>> sound as on the first sound clip on the same lute, it seems to work -
>> see www.rmguitar.info/Maler.htm
>>
>> Has anyone else tried this?
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
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