Well, stated, Gary.  I agree.  Igor, in particular, seemed a very 
minor irritation and a rather superficial provocateur.  Even though I 
rarely agreed with his posts, they did sometimes make me 
chuckle.  I'd rather delete the occasional irritant with a simple 
keystroke then banish it along with my ideals.

Best,
Eugene


At 05:56 AM 11/18/2008, gary digman wrote:
>     I have to say, I'm not sure I agree with this policy of banning 
> people from posting on the lutelist. I know that some people engage 
> in ad hominem arguing, name calling, insults etc., but it seems to 
> me one can always use the delete button to eliminate postings one 
> finds objectionable. I regard this as the price of freedom, and I 
> value freedom.
>      The lutelist has become noticeably less dynamic and, for me, 
> less interesting since Danyel, Matanya, et.al have been eliminated 
> from the list. Some dissonance is essential to give the music life. 
> Too much consonance and things become watered down and static. When 
> Charles Ives was writing his string quartets, he reportedly wrote 
> little dialogues between the instruments in the margins of the 
> manuscript, and, in one, he had one of the violins say to the 
> other, "What's the matter, are you one of those white-livered 
> weaklings who can't stand up and face a good dissonance like a man?"
>       How many people have to be offended before someone gets 
> banned from the list? It seems to me only two or three. I'm always 
> startled by posters who refer to the lutelist as "my list" or "our 
> list" as if this forum belonged to a select group of insiders whose 
> job it is to police the list and make sure it conforms to the 
> vision of this group of insiders. I think the list is more vibrant 
> and robust when it's treated as a public forum in which "a hundred 
> flowers bloom and a hundred thoughts contend." So I say buck up, 
> keep the lutelist open and free and use the delete button if 
> someone crosses the line.
>
>Best to All,
>Gary
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob MacKillop" 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Lute List" <[email protected]>
>Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:57 AM
>Subject: [LUTE] The Online Lute Player
>
>
>>   Sorry this is so long...
>>
>>
>>
>>   The recent Igor = The Devil thread has been gnawing away at me. He
>>   might have been clumsy in the way he expressed himself, but he was
>>   entitled to his view. However, he has highlighted the topic of the
>>   Online Lute Player, and what one might expect that to be, and that is
>>   what I would like to turn our attention to.
>>
>>
>>
>>   In the days before YouTube, one would have expected a degree of
>>   professional standard from a recording artist (setting aside personal
>>   preference for one artist over another). Professional reviewers
>>   (rightly or wrongly) saw it as part of their job to inform their
>>   readers of who was hot and who was not, and why they thought so.
>>   YouTube has blown all that away. Someone who has just picked up his/her
>>   first guitar and decides to pluck it with a banana (not you, Val!), can
>>   reach an audience of thousands within days. You, the watcher-listener,
>>   have to make up your own mind whether something is 'good' or not. You
>>   can watch the video or not. I imagine Igor (and he is not alone) would
>>   like to see a return to a situation where one would expect a
>>   professional standard of performance and presentation. But that just
>>   isn't going to happen - well, I can't see any signs of it at the
>>   moment.
>>
>>
>>
>>   David Taylor has raised two interesting points: 1. These videos give an
>>   insight into how the lute/guitar is actually played, and 2. the
>>   professionals are waiting until they can completely control the
>>   production process before submitting their 'performances' for public
>>   scrutiny (they can already do this, of course, if they have enough
>>   money or their record company are willing to pay for it).
>>
>>
>>
>>   It would be wonderful if we could hear how the average lute player
>>   played in the 16th/17th centuries. We tend to assume that someone like
>>   Mary Burwel or Logy or some other high-profile amateur, would play well
>>   (within our present-day aesthetics). We have lute players today copying
>>   right-hand positions from paintings of amateurs who, for all we know,
>>   might have sounded terrible to their contemporaries. YT allows us to
>>   hear how (dare I say?) 'ordinary' people at the start of the 21st
>>   century played. That will be of use to future researchers, I'm sure.
>>
>>
>>
>>   I consider myself as a semi-professional player. I have CD recordings
>>   and play concerts. Some years have been more busy than others, but I
>>   have never been in a position to make a living exclusively from lute
>>   playing. A few weeks ago the reality of who my audience is was brought
>>   home to me. I recorded the video of me playing the so-called
>>   archguitar. I did that early in the morning. I uploaded it, and then
>>   left the house to play a lunchtime concert in the local church in
>>   Edinburgh during the Edinburgh International Festival when the
>>   population of the city almost doubles. Bearing in mind that I have had
>>   three number one CDs in the Scottish classical charts, I might have
>>   been expected to get a decent-sized audience. There were six people.
>>   And that included my wife, daughter and the guy who opened the church
>>   doors. Three people paid - all pensioners, and therefore paid the lower
>>   rate - and two of them were blind. Why do I mention this? Well, their
>>   companion spent the entire time talking them through what I looked
>>   like, what the instrument looked like, what the church looked like,
>>   etc, etc - while I was playing. The point of all this? By the time I
>>   returned home, ninety minutes after leaving the house, the video had
>>   over 200 plays.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Earlier this week, when I added up all my video plays from YT, Vimeo
>>   and my own web pages, I was surprised to learn I had over 16,000 plays
>>   in just a few months. How many concerts would I have to play to reach
>>   so many people? These figures are not special - many of our lute-video
>>   contributors could mention similar figures. There is no money in it, of
>>   course, but at least there is the satisfaction that someone somewhere
>>   is listening and hopefully enjoying the music.
>>
>>
>>
>>   The downside? Even though the concert I played that lunchtime was on
>>   the face of it a negative experience, my wife and daughter stated that
>>   they had never heard me play so well. Why? I think there were two
>>   contributing factors - the acoustics were marvelous, and opened up for
>>   me subtleties in the music I never imagined were there - I was
>>   experiencing the music afresh, and that inspired me. And, there is a
>>   HUGE difference between playing to an audience, no matter how small,
>>   and playing to a camera.
>>
>>
>>
>>   So, I for one will continue making mp3 files and videos, because I know
>>   there are people who get something positive out of it, and I will
>>   continue to try to play concerts even though I live in a country which
>>   has no interest whatsoever in Early Music.
>>
>>
>>
>>   And I hope that my lute-playing colleagues do so too, no matter what
>>   their 'standard'. I am in their audience.
>>
>>
>>
>>   Rob MacKillop
>>
>>   [1]www.songoftherose.co.uk - free mp3 files and videos :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>   PS I've just remembered...it is interesting to note the difference
>>   between my acoustic guitar audience and my Early Music audience: I have
>>   a 'donations' button on various pages. The Acoustic guitar pages
>>   (Scottish/Celtic stuff - some of it arrangements of Scottish lute
>>   pieces) has had enough hits to allow me to purchase an instrument. The
>>   Song of the Rose site - lute and baroque guitar - has raised only six
>>   pounds. Enough to buy two first strings. Don't worry, this is not a
>>   criticism, just a humorous observation :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   --
>>
>>References
>>
>>   1. http://www.songoftherose.co.uk/
>>
>>
>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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