The point is rather that the regrets come after the event. They could have been expressed, before the exclusion. They are provoked by BY the exclusion. I am not criticising anyone, but I think the scenario does describe a tendancy. Igor overstepped the mark, and probably was purely destructive, but once he was out, some of us have some sort of twinges of conscience. That is what underlines the tale, which must never be taken too literally.
Anthony

Le 18 nov. 08 à 18:33, Eugene C. Braig IV a écrit :

In this case, there seem to be completely different subsets of complainers on either end of such an event. In any event, the whole gives flamers more attention and power than they warrant.

Eugene


At 11:25 AM 11/18/2008, Anthony Hind wrote:
There is an interesting phenomenon (which seems to be occurring
here), described once to me by a friend and character, who sold bric- a-brac on Bermondsey market:

Rumour: "There's a dirty old man coming through the stalls, acting
suspicious, more than likely filched something already"

Chorus: "Oh call the police, call the police, lock the old tea leaf
away!"

The police arrive and hand-cuff the suspect.

Chorus: "Oh who called the bill? Poor old chap, leave him alone,
leave the poor chap alone!"

Sorry, perhaps, slightly off subject, but I  hope you see the point
made by my friend, who had an incredible depth of knowledge of human
behaviour.
Regards
Anthony



Le 18 nov. 08 à 16:08, Eugene C. Braig IV a écrit :

Well, stated, Gary.  I agree.  Igor, in particular, seemed a very
minor irritation and a rather superficial provocateur. Even though I
rarely agreed with his posts, they did sometimes make me
chuckle.  I'd rather delete the occasional irritant with a simple
keystroke then banish it along with my ideals.

Best,
Eugene


At 05:56 AM 11/18/2008, gary digman wrote:
    I have to say, I'm not sure I agree with this policy of banning
people from posting on the lutelist. I know that some people engage
in ad hominem arguing, name calling, insults etc., but it seems to
me one can always use the delete button to eliminate postings one
finds objectionable. I regard this as the price of freedom, and I
value freedom.
     The lutelist has become noticeably less dynamic and, for me,
less interesting since Danyel, Matanya, et.al have been eliminated
from the list. Some dissonance is essential to give the music life.
Too much consonance and things become watered down and static. When
Charles Ives was writing his string quartets, he reportedly wrote
little dialogues between the instruments in the margins of the
manuscript, and, in one, he had one of the violins say to the
other, "What's the matter, are you one of those white-livered
weaklings who can't stand up and face a good dissonance like a man?"
      How many people have to be offended before someone gets
banned from the list? It seems to me only two or three. I'm always
startled by posters who refer to the lutelist as "my list" or "our
list" as if this forum belonged to a select group of insiders whose
job it is to police the list and make sure it conforms to the
vision of this group of insiders. I think the list is more vibrant
and robust when it's treated as a public forum in which "a hundred
flowers bloom and a hundred thoughts contend." So I say buck up,
keep the lutelist open and free and use the delete button if
someone crosses the line.

Best to All,
Gary

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob MacKillop"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lute List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 17, 2008 12:57 AM
Subject: [LUTE] The Online Lute Player


  Sorry this is so long...



The recent Igor = The Devil thread has been gnawing away at me. He might have been clumsy in the way he expressed himself, but he was entitled to his view. However, he has highlighted the topic of the
  Online Lute Player, and what one might expect that to be, and
that is
  what I would like to turn our attention to.



  In the days before YouTube, one would have expected a degree of
  professional standard from a recording artist (setting aside
personal
  preference for one artist over another). Professional reviewers
  (rightly or wrongly) saw it as part of their job to inform their
  readers of who was hot and who was not, and why they thought so.
  YouTube has blown all that away. Someone who has just picked up
his/her
  first guitar and decides to pluck it with a banana (not you,
Val!), can
reach an audience of thousands within days. You, the watcher- listener,
  have to make up your own mind whether something is 'good' or
not. You
  can watch the video or not. I imagine Igor (and he is not
alone) would
  like to see a return to a situation where one would expect a
  professional standard of performance and presentation. But that
just
  isn't going to happen - well, I can't see any signs of it at the
  moment.



  David Taylor has raised two interesting points: 1. These videos
give an
  insight into how the lute/guitar is actually played, and 2. the
  professionals are waiting until they can completely control the
  production process before submitting their 'performances' for
public
scrutiny (they can already do this, of course, if they have enough
  money or their record company are willing to pay for it).



It would be wonderful if we could hear how the average lute player
  played in the 16th/17th centuries. We tend to assume that
someone like
  Mary Burwel or Logy or some other high-profile amateur, would
play well
  (within our present-day aesthetics). We have lute players today
copying
  right-hand positions from paintings of amateurs who, for all we
know,
  might have sounded terrible to their contemporaries. YT allows
us to
hear how (dare I say?) 'ordinary' people at the start of the 21st
  century played. That will be of use to future researchers, I'm
sure.



  I consider myself as a semi-professional player. I have CD
recordings
  and play concerts. Some years have been more busy than others,
but I
  have never been in a position to make a living exclusively from
lute
  playing. A few weeks ago the reality of who my audience is was
brought
  home to me. I recorded the video of me playing the so-called
  archguitar. I did that early in the morning. I uploaded it, and
then
left the house to play a lunchtime concert in the local church in
  Edinburgh during the Edinburgh International Festival when the
  population of the city almost doubles. Bearing in mind that I
have had
  three number one CDs in the Scottish classical charts, I might
have
  been expected to get a decent-sized audience. There were six
people.
  And that included my wife, daughter and the guy who opened the
church
  doors. Three people paid - all pensioners, and therefore paid
the lower
  rate - and two of them were blind. Why do I mention this? Well,
their
companion spent the entire time talking them through what I looked
  like, what the instrument looked like, what the church looked
like,
  etc, etc - while I was playing. The point of all this? By the
time I
  returned home, ninety minutes after leaving the house, the
video had
  over 200 plays.



  Earlier this week, when I added up all my video plays from YT,
Vimeo
  and my own web pages, I was surprised to learn I had over
16,000 plays
  in just a few months. How many concerts would I have to play to
reach
  so many people? These figures are not special - many of our
lute-video
  contributors could mention similar figures. There is no money
in it, of
  course, but at least there is the satisfaction that someone
somewhere
  is listening and hopefully enjoying the music.



  The downside? Even though the concert I played that lunchtime
was on
  the face of it a negative experience, my wife and daughter
stated that
they had never heard me play so well. Why? I think there were two
  contributing factors - the acoustics were marvelous, and opened
up for
  me subtleties in the music I never imagined were there - I was
  experiencing the music afresh, and that inspired me. And, there
is a
  HUGE difference between playing to an audience, no matter how
small,
  and playing to a camera.



  So, I for one will continue making mp3 files and videos,
because I know
there are people who get something positive out of it, and I will
  continue to try to play concerts even though I live in a
country which
  has no interest whatsoever in Early Music.



  And I hope that my lute-playing colleagues do so too, no matter
what
  their 'standard'. I am in their audience.



  Rob MacKillop

  [1]www.songoftherose.co.uk - free mp3 files and videos :-)



PS I've just remembered...it is interesting to note the difference
  between my acoustic guitar audience and my Early Music
audience: I have
  a 'donations' button on various pages. The Acoustic guitar pages
(Scottish/Celtic stuff - some of it arrangements of Scottish lute
  pieces) has had enough hits to allow me to purchase an
instrument. The
  Song of the Rose site - lute and baroque guitar - has raised
only six
  pounds. Enough to buy two first strings. Don't worry, this is
not a
  criticism, just a humorous observation :-)















  --

References

  1. http://www.songoftherose.co.uk/


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