Dear Anthony, You'll see that, in fact, I restricted my observations to trebles only: stringing of other courses is more problematical - speculation on loaded gut, catlines, very high twist strings and the like have yet to be resolved.
I was simply reaffirming that we do know what trebles were made of - gut - and that if we have any pretensions to seek the sound the Old Ones heard we should string the highest courses with gut (or very close gut substitutes). Martyn --- On Wed, 6/10/10, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Subject: Re : Re : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 18:21 Dear Martyn I do agree with the general tendancy of what you seem to be saying, and indeed I will stick with my all gut stringing, and hope that others may follow suit. However, I am not sure how strong a point you are making? Are you saying that all gut-stringing is the only historically compatible solution in all cases (for recording and performance, whatever the situation), or let us say, a goal to aim at, whenever possible (Ed, and some others, I think, adopt the first both for concerts and for recordings; but Jacob Heringman and Jakob Lindberg differentiate the concert situation and the recording situation using some carbon and nylgut, I think). Are you implying that all synthetics (carbon, nylon, Titanium Nylon, etc...), and wirewounds, should be avoided, or are you differentiating between those that are closest to gut (carbon Meanes and nylgut trebles perhaps) from those that are furthest (carbon and Titanium Nylon top strings). % I rather understand the second, and probably would broadly in agree. However, I believe most string makers do not have the equipment to attempt to make synthetic strings that closely imitate gut, which is perhaps why some of those sold as pseudo-gut may be very similar to fishing lines. % Hopefully, Mimmo at Aquila, having an extrudor and the chemical knowledge to do such things, may gradually come up with good synthetic basses, meanes and trebles, all as close as possible to his hypotheses of what hsitorical gut strings may have been like. Perhaps the fishing community will find a use for these new polymers (and we can at last see the removal of wirewounds from lutes). % I still think I will stick with gut stringing, but considering many lutenists are holding on to their synthetics for "dear life", this would be a relatively good outcome for the ancient music society (I believe). Regards Anthony __________________________________________________________________ De : Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> A : Edward Martin <[email protected]>; Edward Mast <[email protected]>; alexander <[email protected]>; Roman Turovsky <[email protected]>; Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Cc : [email protected] Envoye le : Mer 6 octobre 2010, 17h 46min 59s Objet : Re: Re : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? Dear Anthony, Both 'carbon' and these 'titanium nylon' were uknown before modern times so both are surely to be avoided for trebles: being either significantly less dense (ie much thicker and 'plummier') or denser (ie much thinner or 'mettalic') than gut. Martyn --- On Wed, 6/10/10, Anthony Hind <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? To: "Edward Martin" <[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Edward Mast" <[email protected]>, "alexander" <[email protected]>, "Roman Turovsky" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 16:36 Dear Ed I am also an all gut user, and a strong advocate for this closest (Roman) to historic solution; besides it sounds better to my ears than any synthetics. We have strong arguments from DvO relating T. Satoh's experience, to consider that playing a particular piece of music on the stringing-type with which it was created gives the best results : some compositions that Satoh made on synthetic strings apparently don't work well on gut, while some he made on gut don't work on synthetics (no problem here for Roman, then when he plays his own compositions). % Nevertheless, many synthetics users, even those who use nylgut, often use nylon on the top string. This has a closer density to gut than Titanium nylon, but sounds worse than nylgut to my ears. I did feel that the Titanium nylon sounded a little better than nylon (and certainly better than carbon on the top). % I have not heard the new nylgut, but think it should be much closer to gut, and a better solution than either Carbon, nylon or Titanium Nylon. I hope we will soon receive reports. Evidently, like yourselves, I would prefer everyone to use gut, and for gut users to seriously experiment with their stringing (as I know you do). % That said, I would prefer synthetic users to at least make experiments. This could even lead to them finally to experiment with gut. I know some here, have done so. % In fact, it was Charles Besnainou's experiments with polymer stringing for the lute that lead to Savarez' "creation" of KF, following his demonstration of this material-type to them, and this is often now used as a substitute by gut users (Jacob Heringman) on Meanes, for difficult concert situations. % Interestingly for Ned, Charles had been trying to find a way of completely eliminating the need for wirewounds basses (or Meanes), which he considered totally unsuitable for lute music, when he discovered the advantages of PVF for creating his spring "Garachoir" bass strings (which he can now make in gut). I still find that wirewounds are the greatest problem area for synthetic stringing (although, I would admit that has been a difficult problem for gut stringing also. I am very thankful for the existence of Mimmo's loaded strings, as I know you are also for Dan's gimped strings). % Ned " personally have never had serious problems with strings breaking, but am more bothered by wound strings wearing at the frets and buzzing. Partly for that reason, I'm now using carbon for the fifth course rather than wound strings." Ned % As an amateur gut user, top strings breaking, is not a problem for me either. I am used to it. Perhaps during a concert, I would be worried. I saw POD's top string snap to amazing effect, just in the very last bar of the final piece in a superb concert. Perhaps he hade rehearsed the whole thing ... % I agree that wirewounds are the real problem, and I am glad not to have any at all on my lute. % Martyn They were using Savarez Carbon for Meanes, and Titanium nylon for 1st and 2nd. I am wondering why using Titanium nylon which has a lower density than gut is less historic than using Carbon which has a higher density, or indeed using wirewounds, both of which many do, here. Not that I am advocating any of these, I agree they are all non historic. % Alexander That is a lovely fishing tale, and could this mean that Minikins were smaller than previously thought: "beyond any hair for strength and smallness". % Regards Anthony __________________________________________________________________ De : Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> A : Edward Martin <[email protected]>; Anthony Hind <[email protected]>; Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> Cc : [email protected] Envoye le : Mer 6 octobre 2010, 14h 57min 48s Objet : Re: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? But, as I understand Anthony, they are not using advocating 'carbon' strings but something even less dense than modern nylon! MH --- On Wed, 6/10/10, Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> wrote: From: Roman Turovsky <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Edward Martin" <[email protected]>, "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 12:40 From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]> > This seems a very retrograde step. Surely if we are wishing to hear > something even approaching how the Old Ones sounded we ought to > eschew treble strings which are so very different from what they had. Quite a few of the Current Ones far exceed the Old Ones, methinks... > Clearly gut was generally used for trebles and there's no reason to > suppose their density has changed significantly since then - in short a > material close to gut, if not gut, ought to be our goal for these > strings rather than significantly lower density, and hence thicker (and > plummier sounding), strings. Or thuddier ans squeekier, to some. > Of course it's quite possible these particular players to which you > refer don't wish to try and achieve this sort of sound and quite like > the modern guitar type tone...... There is nothing "guitar type" in the tone of carbon on lutes. So until the improvement of gut technology that would some day assure stability, intonation and economic justification we'd be using carbon. RT > --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Anthony Hind <[2][email protected]> wrote: > > From: Anthony Hind <[3][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? > To: "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]> > Cc: [5][email protected] > Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:24 > > Dear Ed and All > For the reason you state below : > % > > The density of carbon is so much > > more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a > 0.38 > > or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is > > certainly more sharp sounding. > > > > ed > % > two lutenists on the French list, who have adopted synthetic strings > for their stability, (rather than just for their low cost), and who > are > ready to experiment to achieve the sound they are looking for, have > adopted very low density Titanium Nylon fishing lines for their top > strings, which they claim give a thicker, and therefore, sweeter > warmer > sounding top string for the same tension, compared to high density > KF > carbon (which they use for their Meanes) or even compared to > slightly > higher density nylon. > % > They liked the sound of the old nylgut (with its density close to > gut), > but claimed that it tended to break too easilly (which presumably > has > been resolved with the latest version).. > % > In fact, they were looking for a sound similar to that which is > achieved with titanium nylon guitar strings, but these do not exist > in > diameters suitable for the lute. > It would seem that such a string can be found in a suitable diameter > (0,35 to 0,50) in fishing line, under the name, Nylon Powerline > Titanium; but there is also Asari Falcon titanium G2, which might be > suitable. > (for those interested these are special fishing lines for surf > casting) > % > FranAS:ois Pizette gave the following comparative table of densities > (which I have not checked out): > % > titanium nylon :1.04 > nylon: 1.12 > perlon: 1.22 > nylgut: 1.3 > gut: 1.36 > KF pvf: 1.81 > % > FranAS:ois actually sent me a trial string for my Renaissance lute, > but > I never got round to trying it out, myself. I had just begun > experimenting a Kathedral gut top string at the time, so I passed it > on > to a friend who was using a nylon top string, and I believe he found > the Titanium Nylon quite good, but a little "too sweet". > Nevertheless, > he kept it on for a time, so it may not have been at all bad to his > taste. > % > As you say, string density determines the diameter, and presumably, > all > things being equal, 'thinner than nylon' could lead to a sharper > tone, > while thicker could lead to a sweeter one. However, FranAS:ois > Pizette > claimed he heard the carbon top string as "colder", and the titanium > nylon as "warmer". > Nevertheless, relative top string thickness also plays a role in > terms > of feel and playability. It is not easy to "dig into" a thin string, > although an over thick string could possibly become too damped. > % > A comparison between Alliance Savrez carbon and Addario > Titanium-nylon > can be heard here on a Ukelele in this You/Tube video (if you have > the > patience, as there are two other strings tested): > [1][1][6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY > % > One player's comments on this test seem interesting. He says it is > more > the feel of the Titanium Nylon he prefers than the sound difference > with the Savarez: > "You were the one that goti>>? me into Savarez strings, though I > still > prefer my D'Addrios only because they are thicker and give me a > little > more "feel" under my fingers." (a Ukele player) > % > Is this not why some Baroque lutenist gut users prefer a lower > diapason > (say 392 over 415, with the same tension). This also gives a > thicker > top string, with more material to "dig into"? > % > I think this question may be just as interesting for gut as for > synthetics users. > While personally, I have been experimenting with the sound and feel > of > gut in relation to hypotheses about historic strings, I am happy to > report on these synthetic string user's experiments, attempting to > achieve a better sound and playability with their choice of strings. > Best regards > Anthony > ---- Message d'origine ---- > >De : "Edward Martin" <[2][[email protected]> > >A : "Edward Mast" <[3][8][email protected]>; > > "Roman Turovsky" <[4][9][email protected]> > >Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings? > >Date : 04/10/2010 15:10:06 CEST > >Copie A : "Paul Kieffer" <[5][10][email protected]>; > > "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[6][11][email protected]>; > > [7][12][email protected] > > > >No, it would have too much tension. The density of carbon is so > much > > more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a > 0.38 > > or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is > > certainly more sharp sounding. > > > > ed > > > > > > > > > > > > At 07:50 AM 10/4/2010, Edward Mast wrote: > > >The .40-.41 mm diameter line sounds like it would be suitable for > > >the top course, yes? > > > > > > > > Edward Martin > > 2817 East 2nd Street > > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > > e-mail: [8][[email protected] > > voice: (218) 728-1202 > > [2][9][14]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > > [3][10][15]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > [4][11][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > -- > References > 1. [12][17]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY > 2. [13][18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > 3. [14][19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > 4. [15][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [21]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY > 2. [22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 3. [23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 4. [24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 5. > [25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieffer@ gmail.com > 6. [26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 7. [27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 8. [28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 9. [29]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > 10. [30]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > 11. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > 12. [32]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY > 13. [33]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > 14. [34]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > 15. [35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 15. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 29. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 30. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 33. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 34. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
