But, But, But, I would posit that gut trebles, played with a flat
angle, close to the bridge with some force could sound like carbon /
titanium played with taste.
JM
On 10/6/10 9:05 AM, "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]>
wrote:
Well, we don't know absolutely - but it would surely be incorrect to
say we don't have any idea whatsover.
Certainly we know gut trebles were used and 'titanium nylon' were
not, which is the point at issue.
MH
From: Mayes, Joseph <[2][email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
To: "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson"
<[4][email protected]>, "Anthony Hind"
<[5][email protected]>
Cc: "[6][email protected]" <[7][email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 13:04
Just to be contrary, I should point out that we have no idea how
lutes
sounded. Admittedly, carbon fiber was not all that prevalent in the
renaissance.
Joseph Mayes
On 10/6/10 7:37 AM, "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]
<[9]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
> > wrote:
> Thanks for the note, Marytn. I agree with you, totally. For the
> most part, I have played gut exclusively for the past 18 years or
so,
> as the sound is so beautiful, not to mention that it _is_ the way
> lutes sounded.
>
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
> At 02:01 AM 10/6/2010, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>
>
>> Dear Anthony,
>>
>> This seems a very retrograde step. Surely if we are wishing to
hear
>> something even approaching how the Old Ones sounded we ought
to
>> eschew treble strings which are so very different from what
they had.
>> Clearly gut was generally used for trebles and there's no
reason to
>> suppose their density has changed significantly since then -
in short a
>> material close to gut, if not gut, ought to be our goal for
these
>> strings rather than significantly lower density, and hence
thicker (and
>> plummier sounding), strings.
>>
>> Of course it's quite possible these particular players to
which you
>> refer don't wish to try and achieve this sort of sound and
quite like
>> the modern guitar type tone......
>>
>> regards
>>
>> M.
>> --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Anthony Hind <[10][email protected]
<[11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
om> > wrote:
>>
>> From: Anthony Hind <[12][email protected]
<[13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
om> >
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
>> To: "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]
<[15]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
m> >
>> Cc: [16][email protected]
<[17]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu>
>> Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:24
>>
>> Dear Ed and All
>> For the reason you state below :
>> %
>>> The density of carbon is so much
>>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a
>> 0.38
>>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is
>>> certainly more sharp sounding.
>>>
>>> ed
>> %
>> two lutenists on the French list, who have adopted
synthetic strings
>> for their stability, (rather than just for their low cost),
and who
>> are
>> ready to experiment to achieve the sound they are looking
for, have
>> adopted very low density Titanium Nylon fishing lines for
their top
>> strings, which they claim give a thicker, and therefore,
sweeter
>> warmer
>> sounding top string for the same tension, compared to high
density
>> KF
>> carbon (which they use for their Meanes) or even compared
to
>> slightly
>> higher density nylon.
>> %
>> They liked the sound of the old nylgut (with its density
close to
>> gut),
>> but claimed that it tended to break too easilly (which
presumably
>> has
>> been resolved with the latest version)..
>> %
>> In fact, they were looking for a sound similar to that
which is
>> achieved with titanium nylon guitar strings, but these do
not exist
>> in
>> diameters suitable for the lute.
>> It would seem that such a string can be found in a suitable
diameter
>> (0,35 to 0,50) in fishing line, under the name, Nylon
Powerline
>> Titanium; but there is also Asari Falcon titanium G2, which
might be
>> suitable.
>> (for those interested these are special fishing lines for
surf
>> casting)
>> %
>> FranAS:ois Pizette gave the following comparative table of
densities
>> (which I have not checked out):
>> %
>> titanium nylon :1.04
>> nylon: 1.12
>> perlon: 1.22
>> nylgut: 1.3
>> gut: 1.36
>> KF pvf: 1.81
>> %
>> FranAS:ois actually sent me a trial string for my
Renaissance lute,
>> but
>> I never got round to trying it out, myself. I had just
begun
>> experimenting a Kathedral gut top string at the time, so I
passed it
>> on
>> to a friend who was using a nylon top string, and I believe
he found
>> the Titanium Nylon quite good, but a little "too sweet".
>> Nevertheless,
>> he kept it on for a time, so it may not have been at all
bad to his
>> taste.
>> %
>> As you say, string density determines the diameter, and
presumably,
>> all
>> things being equal, 'thinner than nylon' could lead to a
sharper
>> tone,
>> while thicker could lead to a sweeter one. However,
FranAS:ois
>> Pizette
>> claimed he heard the carbon top string as "colder", and the
titanium
>> nylon as "warmer".
>> Nevertheless, relative top string thickness also plays a
role in
>> terms
>> of feel and playability. It is not easy to "dig into" a
thin string,
>> although an over thick string could possibly become too
damped.
>> %
>> A comparison between Alliance Savrez carbon and Addario
>> Titanium-nylon
>> can be heard here on a Ukelele in this You/Tube video (if
you have
>> the
>> patience, as there are two other strings tested):
>> [1][1][18]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> %
>> One player's comments on this test seem interesting. He
says it is
>> more
>> the feel of the Titanium Nylon he prefers than the sound
difference
>> with the Savarez:
>> "You were the one that goti>>? me into Savarez strings,
though I
>> still
>> prefer my D'Addrios only because they are thicker and give
me a
>> little
>> more "feel" under my fingers." (a Ukele player)
>> %
>> Is this not why some Baroque lutenist gut users prefer a
lower
>> diapason
>> (say 392 over 415, with the same tension). This also gives
a
>> thicker
>> top string, with more material to "dig into"?
>> %
>> I think this question may be just as interesting for gut as
for
>> synthetics users.
>> While personally, I have been experimenting with the sound
and feel
>> of
>> gut in relation to hypotheses about historic strings, I am
happy to
>> report on these synthetic string user's experiments,
attempting to
>> achieve a better sound and playability with their choice of
strings.
>> Best regards
>> Anthony
>> ---- Message d'origine ----
>>> De : "Edward Martin" <[2][[email protected]
<[20]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
m> >
>>> A : "Edward Mast" <[3][21][email protected]
<[22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>
>;
>>> "Roman Turovsky" <[4][23][email protected]
<[24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon
.net> >
>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
>>> Date : 04/10/2010 15:10:06 CEST
>>> Copie A : "Paul Kieffer"
<[5][25][email protected]
<[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kief
[email protected]> >;
>>> "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[6][27][email protected]
<[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]>
>;
>>> [7][29][email protected]
<[30]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected].
edu>
>>>
>>> No, it would have too much tension. The density of carbon is so
>> much
>>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a
>> 0.38
>>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is
>>> certainly more sharp sounding.
>>>
>>> ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:50 AM 10/4/2010, Edward Mast wrote:
>>>> The .40-.41 mm diameter line sounds like it would be suitable
for
>>>> the top course, yes?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Edward Martin
>>> 2817 East 2nd Street
>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
>>> e-mail: [8][[email protected]
<[32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
m>
>>> voice: (218) 728-1202
>>>
[2][9][33]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>>> [3][10][34]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>
[4][11][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>> --
>> References
>> 1. [12][36]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> 2.
[13][37]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>> 3. [14][38]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>> 4.
[15][39]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
<[40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [41]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> 2.
[42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 3.
[43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 4.
[44]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@verizon.
net
>> 5.
>>
[45]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieff
[email protected]
>> 6.
[46]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 7.
[47]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
du
>> 8.
[48]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 9.
[49]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>> 10. [50]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>> 11. [51]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 12. [52]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> 13.
[53]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>> 14. [54]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>> 15. [55]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [[email protected]
<[57]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
m>
> voice: (218) 728-1202
> [58]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
> [59]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>
>
>
--
References
1. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
2. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
3. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
4. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
5. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
6. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
7. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
8. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
12. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
14. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
16. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
18. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
19. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
21. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
23. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
25. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
26.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
27. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
29. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
30. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
31. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
33. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
34. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
36. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
37. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
38. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
39. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
41. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
42. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
43. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
44. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
45.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
46. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
47. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
48. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
49. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
50. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
51. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
52. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
53. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
54. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
55. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
56. file://localhost/net/people/lute-arc/[email protected]
57. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
58. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
59. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
