Well, we don't know absolutely - but it would surely be incorrect to
say we don't have any idea whatsover.
Certainly we know gut trebles were used and 'titanium nylon' were not,
which is the point at issue.
MH
From: Mayes, Joseph <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
To: "Edward Martin" <[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson"
<[email protected]>, "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]>
Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 13:04
Just to be contrary, I should point out that we have no idea how lutes
sounded. Admittedly, carbon fiber was not all that prevalent in the
renaissance.
Joseph Mayes
On 10/6/10 7:37 AM, "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for the note, Marytn. I agree with you, totally. For the
> most part, I have played gut exclusively for the past 18 years or so,
> as the sound is so beautiful, not to mention that it _is_ the way
> lutes sounded.
>
>
> ed
>
>
>
>
> At 02:01 AM 10/6/2010, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>
>
>> Dear Anthony,
>>
>> This seems a very retrograde step. Surely if we are wishing to
hear
>> something even approaching how the Old Ones sounded we ought to
>> eschew treble strings which are so very different from what they
had.
>> Clearly gut was generally used for trebles and there's no reason
to
>> suppose their density has changed significantly since then - in
short a
>> material close to gut, if not gut, ought to be our goal for these
>> strings rather than significantly lower density, and hence
thicker (and
>> plummier sounding), strings.
>>
>> Of course it's quite possible these particular players to which
you
>> refer don't wish to try and achieve this sort of sound and quite
like
>> the modern guitar type tone......
>>
>> regards
>>
>> M.
>> --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Anthony Hind <[2][email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>> From: Anthony Hind <[3][email protected]>
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon?
>> To: "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]>
>> Cc: [5][email protected]
>> Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:24
>>
>> Dear Ed and All
>> For the reason you state below :
>> %
>>> The density of carbon is so much
>>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a
>> 0.38
>>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is
>>> certainly more sharp sounding.
>>>
>>> ed
>> %
>> two lutenists on the French list, who have adopted synthetic
strings
>> for their stability, (rather than just for their low cost),
and who
>> are
>> ready to experiment to achieve the sound they are looking for,
have
>> adopted very low density Titanium Nylon fishing lines for
their top
>> strings, which they claim give a thicker, and therefore,
sweeter
>> warmer
>> sounding top string for the same tension, compared to high
density
>> KF
>> carbon (which they use for their Meanes) or even compared to
>> slightly
>> higher density nylon.
>> %
>> They liked the sound of the old nylgut (with its density close
to
>> gut),
>> but claimed that it tended to break too easilly (which
presumably
>> has
>> been resolved with the latest version)..
>> %
>> In fact, they were looking for a sound similar to that which
is
>> achieved with titanium nylon guitar strings, but these do not
exist
>> in
>> diameters suitable for the lute.
>> It would seem that such a string can be found in a suitable
diameter
>> (0,35 to 0,50) in fishing line, under the name, Nylon
Powerline
>> Titanium; but there is also Asari Falcon titanium G2, which
might be
>> suitable.
>> (for those interested these are special fishing lines for surf
>> casting)
>> %
>> FranAS:ois Pizette gave the following comparative table of
densities
>> (which I have not checked out):
>> %
>> titanium nylon :1.04
>> nylon: 1.12
>> perlon: 1.22
>> nylgut: 1.3
>> gut: 1.36
>> KF pvf: 1.81
>> %
>> FranAS:ois actually sent me a trial string for my Renaissance
lute,
>> but
>> I never got round to trying it out, myself. I had just begun
>> experimenting a Kathedral gut top string at the time, so I
passed it
>> on
>> to a friend who was using a nylon top string, and I believe he
found
>> the Titanium Nylon quite good, but a little "too sweet".
>> Nevertheless,
>> he kept it on for a time, so it may not have been at all bad
to his
>> taste.
>> %
>> As you say, string density determines the diameter, and
presumably,
>> all
>> things being equal, 'thinner than nylon' could lead to a
sharper
>> tone,
>> while thicker could lead to a sweeter one. However, FranAS:ois
>> Pizette
>> claimed he heard the carbon top string as "colder", and the
titanium
>> nylon as "warmer".
>> Nevertheless, relative top string thickness also plays a role
in
>> terms
>> of feel and playability. It is not easy to "dig into" a thin
string,
>> although an over thick string could possibly become too
damped.
>> %
>> A comparison between Alliance Savrez carbon and Addario
>> Titanium-nylon
>> can be heard here on a Ukelele in this You/Tube video (if you
have
>> the
>> patience, as there are two other strings tested):
>> [1][1][6]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> %
>> One player's comments on this test seem interesting. He says
it is
>> more
>> the feel of the Titanium Nylon he prefers than the sound
difference
>> with the Savarez:
>> "You were the one that goti>>? me into Savarez strings, though
I
>> still
>> prefer my D'Addrios only because they are thicker and give me
a
>> little
>> more "feel" under my fingers." (a Ukele player)
>> %
>> Is this not why some Baroque lutenist gut users prefer a lower
>> diapason
>> (say 392 over 415, with the same tension). This also gives a
>> thicker
>> top string, with more material to "dig into"?
>> %
>> I think this question may be just as interesting for gut as
for
>> synthetics users.
>> While personally, I have been experimenting with the sound and
feel
>> of
>> gut in relation to hypotheses about historic strings, I am
happy to
>> report on these synthetic string user's experiments,
attempting to
>> achieve a better sound and playability with their choice of
strings.
>> Best regards
>> Anthony
>> ---- Message d'origine ----
>>> De : "Edward Martin" <[2][[email protected]>
>>> A : "Edward Mast" <[3][8][email protected]>;
>>> "Roman Turovsky" <[4][9][email protected]>
>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings?
>>> Date : 04/10/2010 15:10:06 CEST
>>> Copie A : "Paul Kieffer" <[5][10][email protected]>;
>>> "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[6][11][email protected]>;
>>> [7][12][email protected]
>>>
>>> No, it would have too much tension. The density of carbon is so
>> much
>>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a
>> 0.38
>>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is
>>> certainly more sharp sounding.
>>>
>>> ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At 07:50 AM 10/4/2010, Edward Mast wrote:
>>>> The .40-.41 mm diameter line sounds like it would be suitable for
>>>> the top course, yes?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Edward Martin
>>> 2817 East 2nd Street
>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
>>> e-mail: [8][[email protected]
>>> voice: (218) 728-1202
>>>
[2][9][14]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>>> [3][10][15]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [4][11][16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>> --
>> References
>> 1. [12][17]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> 2.
[13][18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>> 3. [14][19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>> 4.
[15][20]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. [21]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> 2.
[22]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 3.
[23]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 4.
[24]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 5.
>>
[25]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieffer@
gmail.com
>> 6.
[26]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 7.
[27]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 8.
[28]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
>> 9. [29]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>> 10. [30]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>> 11. [31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 12. [32]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
>> 13. [33]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
>> 14. [34]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>> 15. [35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> Edward Martin
> 2817 East 2nd Street
> Duluth, Minnesota 55812
> e-mail: [[email protected]
> voice: (218) 728-1202
> [37]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
> [38]http://www.myspace.com/edslute
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
10.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
14. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
15. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
17. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
18. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
19. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
20. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
25.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
29. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
30. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
32. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY
33. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
34. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
37. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name
38. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
