No problem here - what consenting adults do on their own is their own business. It's simply that if we are seeking a sound as close as possible to what the Old Ones heard we ought to replicate what is known of early stringing - and one thing is very clear: gut was generally used for trebles.
MH --- On Wed, 6/10/10, Edward Mast <[email protected]> wrote: From: Edward Mast <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? To: "Sauvage Valery" <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 22:13 A good discussion, this, on strings. Valery makes such wonderful music on his synthetic strung lute - I wouldn't question his opinion for a moment! I think it's grand that we have the choices we do. I have three renaissance instruments - each sounding quite different from the others - and its a pleasure to switch among them. I've had gut on one of them and will again be putting gut on to one of them. The sound and the feel of gut is simply unique. It's not a matter of historicity (for me); it's simply a matter of sound and feel. I say viva la difference (sorry, Valery, French is not one of my languages) and play what suits your ear and hands. Ned On Oct 6, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Sauvage Valery wrote: > > Seeking the sound of "old ones" is a lost battle in my opinion... Even with > "modern" gut strings... > For my sake I'm just trying to play some music. Not making musical > archeology. And many "amateurs" I think don't need to waste time and money > playing gut strings, they should just try to play and have a good sound on > their lutes as much as they are able to. > I would only play with gut strings (perhaps) If I have to record in a studio > with good hygrometric conditions. But for a daily work... Gut is too > fragile. > > The best recital I ever heard was Paul O'Dette in Gijon (Spain) playing on > his two Thomson's lutes, 6 and 8 courses, with Nylgut strings... > > What I would like to say is that if some people want to spend their money > and time playing gut, it's fine for me. What makes my reaction is that I > often heard: "whithout Gut, no salvation" and that is intolerance. In Gut I > don't believe, let me be a gut atheist... And don't be too sectarist. > V. > > Did someone try the new Nylgut ? > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : [1][email protected] [mailto:[2][email protected]] De la part > de Martyn Hodgson > Envoye : mercredi 6 octobre 2010 17:38 > A : [3][email protected]; Sauvage Valery > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? > > > > > But they didn't have such strings. If we are trying to seek the sounds > heard by the Old Ones it's necessary to start from what we do know ie > they generally used gut trebles. > MH > > --- On Wed, 6/10/10, Sauvage Valery <[4][email protected]> wrote: > > From: Sauvage Valery <[5][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? > To: [6][email protected] > Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 14:47 > > Can we imagine at the renaissance-baroque time if they had choice to > play > with nice sounding strings, but so expensive, fragile and difficult to > stay > in tune, or less expensive strings, staying in tune and lasting longer, > (and > even sounding louder and not so bad) what would have been their choice > ? > I don't know for them, I know for me (and I know some have different > opinion...) > Don't forget the quality of sound is also very much the way we pluck > the > strings (perhaps more than the material and quality of strings...) > So much talk about this subject. Lets just spend this time playing, > than > cutting hairs (or strings) in four (in the longer side) ;-) > Valery > -----Message d'origine----- > De : [1][7][email protected] [mailto:[2][8][email protected]] > De la part > de Martyn Hodgson > Envoye : mercredi 6 octobre 2010 15:06 > A : Edward Martin; Anthony Hind; JosephMayes > Cc : [3][9][email protected] > Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? > Well, we don't know absolutely - but it would surely be incorrect to > say we don't have any idea whatsover. > Certainly we know gut trebles were used and 'titanium nylon' were > not, > which is the point at issue. > MH > From: Mayes, Joseph <[4][10][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? > To: "Edward Martin" <[5][[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson" > <[6][12][email protected]>, "Anthony Hind" > <[7][13][email protected]> > Cc: "[8][14][email protected]" <[9][15][email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 13:04 > Just to be contrary, I should point out that we have no idea how > lutes > sounded. Admittedly, carbon fiber was not all that prevalent in the > renaissance. > Joseph Mayes > On 10/6/10 7:37 AM, "Edward Martin" <[1][10][[email protected]> > wrote: >> Thanks for the note, Marytn. I agree with you, totally. For the >> most part, I have played gut exclusively for the past 18 years or > so, >> as the sound is so beautiful, not to mention that it _is_ the way >> lutes sounded. >> >> >> ed >> >> >> >> >> At 02:01 AM 10/6/2010, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >> >> >>> Dear Anthony, >>> >>> This seems a very retrograde step. Surely if we are wishing to > hear >>> something even approaching how the Old Ones sounded we ought > to >>> eschew treble strings which are so very different from what > they > had. >>> Clearly gut was generally used for trebles and there's no > reason > to >>> suppose their density has changed significantly since then - > in > short a >>> material close to gut, if not gut, ought to be our goal for > these >>> strings rather than significantly lower density, and hence > thicker (and >>> plummier sounding), strings. >>> >>> Of course it's quite possible these particular players to > which > you >>> refer don't wish to try and achieve this sort of sound and > quite > like >>> the modern guitar type tone...... >>> >>> regards >>> >>> M. >>> --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Anthony Hind > <[2][11][17][email protected]> > wrote: >>> >>> From: Anthony Hind <[3][12][18][email protected]> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? >>> To: "Edward Martin" <[4][13][[email protected]> >>> Cc: [5][14][20][email protected] >>> Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:24 >>> >>> Dear Ed and All >>> For the reason you state below : >>> % >>>> The density of carbon is so much >>>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a >>> 0.38 >>>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is >>>> certainly more sharp sounding. >>>> >>>> ed >>> % >>> two lutenists on the French list, who have adopted > synthetic > strings >>> for their stability, (rather than just for their low cost), > and who >>> are >>> ready to experiment to achieve the sound they are looking > for, > have >>> adopted very low density Titanium Nylon fishing lines for > their top >>> strings, which they claim give a thicker, and therefore, > sweeter >>> warmer >>> sounding top string for the same tension, compared to high > density >>> KF >>> carbon (which they use for their Meanes) or even compared > to >>> slightly >>> higher density nylon. >>> % >>> They liked the sound of the old nylgut (with its density > close > to >>> gut), >>> but claimed that it tended to break too easilly (which > presumably >>> has >>> been resolved with the latest version).. >>> % >>> In fact, they were looking for a sound similar to that > which > is >>> achieved with titanium nylon guitar strings, but these do > not > exist >>> in >>> diameters suitable for the lute. >>> It would seem that such a string can be found in a suitable > diameter >>> (0,35 to 0,50) in fishing line, under the name, Nylon > Powerline >>> Titanium; but there is also Asari Falcon titanium G2, which > might be >>> suitable. >>> (for those interested these are special fishing lines for > surf >>> casting) >>> % >>> FranAS:ois Pizette gave the following comparative table of > densities >>> (which I have not checked out): >>> % >>> titanium nylon :1.04 >>> nylon: 1.12 >>> perlon: 1.22 >>> nylgut: 1.3 >>> gut: 1.36 >>> KF pvf: 1.81 >>> % >>> FranAS:ois actually sent me a trial string for my > Renaissance > lute, >>> but >>> I never got round to trying it out, myself. I had just > begun >>> experimenting a Kathedral gut top string at the time, so I > passed it >>> on >>> to a friend who was using a nylon top string, and I believe > he > found >>> the Titanium Nylon quite good, but a little "too sweet". >>> Nevertheless, >>> he kept it on for a time, so it may not have been at all > bad > to his >>> taste. >>> % >>> As you say, string density determines the diameter, and > presumably, >>> all >>> things being equal, 'thinner than nylon' could lead to a > sharper >>> tone, >>> while thicker could lead to a sweeter one. However, > FranAS:ois >>> Pizette >>> claimed he heard the carbon top string as "colder", and the > titanium >>> nylon as "warmer". >>> Nevertheless, relative top string thickness also plays a > role > in >>> terms >>> of feel and playability. It is not easy to "dig into" a > thin > string, >>> although an over thick string could possibly become too > damped. >>> % >>> A comparison between Alliance Savrez carbon and Addario >>> Titanium-nylon >>> can be heard here on a Ukelele in this You/Tube video (if > you > have >>> the >>> patience, as there are two other strings tested): >>> [1][1][6][15][21]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >>> % >>> One player's comments on this test seem interesting. He > says > it is >>> more >>> the feel of the Titanium Nylon he prefers than the sound > difference >>> with the Savarez: >>> "You were the one that goti>>? me into Savarez strings, > though > I >>> still >>> prefer my D'Addrios only because they are thicker and give > me > a >>> little >>> more "feel" under my fingers." (a Ukele player) >>> % >>> Is this not why some Baroque lutenist gut users prefer a > lower >>> diapason >>> (say 392 over 415, with the same tension). This also gives > a >>> thicker >>> top string, with more material to "dig into"? >>> % >>> I think this question may be just as interesting for gut as > for >>> synthetics users. >>> While personally, I have been experimenting with the sound > and > feel >>> of >>> gut in relation to hypotheses about historic strings, I am > happy to >>> report on these synthetic string user's experiments, > attempting to >>> achieve a better sound and playability with their choice of > strings. >>> Best regards >>> Anthony >>> ---- Message d'origine ---- >>>> De : "Edward Martin" <[2][7][16][[email protected]> >>>> A : "Edward Mast" <[3][8][17][23][email protected]>; >>>> "Roman Turovsky" <[4][9][18][24][email protected]> >>>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings? >>>> Date : 04/10/2010 15:10:06 CEST >>>> Copie A : "Paul Kieffer" > <[5][10][19][25][email protected]>; >>>> "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[6][11][20][26][email protected]>; >>>> [7][12][21][27][email protected] >>>> >>>> No, it would have too much tension. The density of carbon is so >>> much >>>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a >>> 0.38 >>>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is >>>> certainly more sharp sounding. >>>> >>>> ed >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At 07:50 AM 10/4/2010, Edward Mast wrote: >>>>> The .40-.41 mm diameter line sounds like it would be suitable > for >>>>> the top course, yes? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Edward Martin >>>> 2817 East 2nd Street >>>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >>>> e-mail: [8][13][22][[email protected] >>>> voice: (218) 728-1202 >>>> > [2][9][14][23][29]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref = > name >>>> [3][10][15][24][30]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> > [4][11][16][25][31]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/inde x.html >>>> >>> -- >>> References >>> 1. [12][17][26][32]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >>> 2. > [13][18][27][33]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=n a > me >>> 3. [14][19][28][34]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >>> 4. > [15][20][29][35]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.htm l >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. [21][30][36]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >>> 2. > [22][31][37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstring s > .com >>> 3. > [23][32][38]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] o > m >>> 4. > [24][33][39]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@ver i > zon.net >>> 5. >>> > [25][34][40]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas. k > ieffer@ > gmail.com >>> 6. > [26][35][41]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] u >>> 7. > [27][36][42]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] u > th.edu >>> 8. > [28][37][43]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstring s > .com >>> 9. > [29][38][44]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=n ame >>> 10. [30][39][45]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >>> 11. > [31][40][46]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 12. [32][41][47]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >>> 13. > [33][42][48]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=n ame >>> 14. [34][43][49]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >>> 15. > [35][44][50]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> Edward Martin >> 2817 East 2nd Street >> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >> e-mail: [36][45][[email protected] >> voice: (218) 728-1202 >> [37][46][52]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name >> [38][47][53]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> >> >> > -- > References > 1. > [48][54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstring s.com > 2. > [49][55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah oo.com > 3. > [50][56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3ph...@yah oo.com > 4. > [51][57]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstring s.com > 5. > [52][58]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] uth.edu > 6. 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[176]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > > > -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 25. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 26. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 29. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref= 30. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 31. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 33. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=na 34. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 35. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 36. 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