But they didn't have such strings. If we are trying to seek the sounds heard by the Old Ones it's necessary to start from what we do know ie they generally used gut trebles. MH
--- On Wed, 6/10/10, Sauvage Valery <[email protected]> wrote: From: Sauvage Valery <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 14:47 Can we imagine at the renaissance-baroque time if they had choice to play with nice sounding strings, but so expensive, fragile and difficult to stay in tune, or less expensive strings, staying in tune and lasting longer, (and even sounding louder and not so bad) what would have been their choice ? I don't know for them, I know for me (and I know some have different opinion...) Don't forget the quality of sound is also very much the way we pluck the strings (perhaps more than the material and quality of strings...) So much talk about this subject. Lets just spend this time playing, than cutting hairs (or strings) in four (in the longer side) ;-) Valery -----Message d'origine----- De : [1][email protected] [mailto:[2][email protected]] De la part de Martyn Hodgson Envoye : mercredi 6 octobre 2010 15:06 A : Edward Martin; Anthony Hind; JosephMayes Cc : [3][email protected] Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? Well, we don't know absolutely - but it would surely be incorrect to say we don't have any idea whatsover. Certainly we know gut trebles were used and 'titanium nylon' were not, which is the point at issue. MH From: Mayes, Joseph <[4][email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? To: "Edward Martin" <[[email protected]>, "Martyn Hodgson" <[6][email protected]>, "Anthony Hind" <[7][email protected]> Cc: "[8][email protected]" <[9][email protected]> Date: Wednesday, 6 October, 2010, 13:04 Just to be contrary, I should point out that we have no idea how lutes sounded. Admittedly, carbon fiber was not all that prevalent in the renaissance. Joseph Mayes On 10/6/10 7:37 AM, "Edward Martin" <[1][[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks for the note, Marytn. I agree with you, totally. For the > most part, I have played gut exclusively for the past 18 years or so, > as the sound is so beautiful, not to mention that it _is_ the way > lutes sounded. > > > ed > > > > > At 02:01 AM 10/6/2010, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > >> Dear Anthony, >> >> This seems a very retrograde step. Surely if we are wishing to hear >> something even approaching how the Old Ones sounded we ought to >> eschew treble strings which are so very different from what they had. >> Clearly gut was generally used for trebles and there's no reason to >> suppose their density has changed significantly since then - in short a >> material close to gut, if not gut, ought to be our goal for these >> strings rather than significantly lower density, and hence thicker (and >> plummier sounding), strings. >> >> Of course it's quite possible these particular players to which you >> refer don't wish to try and achieve this sort of sound and quite like >> the modern guitar type tone...... >> >> regards >> >> M. >> --- On Tue, 5/10/10, Anthony Hind <[2][11][email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Anthony Hind <[3][12][email protected]> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings + Titanium Nylon? >> To: "Edward Martin" <[4][[email protected]> >> Cc: [5][14][email protected] >> Date: Tuesday, 5 October, 2010, 14:24 >> >> Dear Ed and All >> For the reason you state below : >> % >>> The density of carbon is so much >>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a >> 0.38 >>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is >>> certainly more sharp sounding. >>> >>> ed >> % >> two lutenists on the French list, who have adopted synthetic strings >> for their stability, (rather than just for their low cost), and who >> are >> ready to experiment to achieve the sound they are looking for, have >> adopted very low density Titanium Nylon fishing lines for their top >> strings, which they claim give a thicker, and therefore, sweeter >> warmer >> sounding top string for the same tension, compared to high density >> KF >> carbon (which they use for their Meanes) or even compared to >> slightly >> higher density nylon. >> % >> They liked the sound of the old nylgut (with its density close to >> gut), >> but claimed that it tended to break too easilly (which presumably >> has >> been resolved with the latest version).. >> % >> In fact, they were looking for a sound similar to that which is >> achieved with titanium nylon guitar strings, but these do not exist >> in >> diameters suitable for the lute. >> It would seem that such a string can be found in a suitable diameter >> (0,35 to 0,50) in fishing line, under the name, Nylon Powerline >> Titanium; but there is also Asari Falcon titanium G2, which might be >> suitable. >> (for those interested these are special fishing lines for surf >> casting) >> % >> FranAS:ois Pizette gave the following comparative table of densities >> (which I have not checked out): >> % >> titanium nylon :1.04 >> nylon: 1.12 >> perlon: 1.22 >> nylgut: 1.3 >> gut: 1.36 >> KF pvf: 1.81 >> % >> FranAS:ois actually sent me a trial string for my Renaissance lute, >> but >> I never got round to trying it out, myself. I had just begun >> experimenting a Kathedral gut top string at the time, so I passed it >> on >> to a friend who was using a nylon top string, and I believe he found >> the Titanium Nylon quite good, but a little "too sweet". >> Nevertheless, >> he kept it on for a time, so it may not have been at all bad to his >> taste. >> % >> As you say, string density determines the diameter, and presumably, >> all >> things being equal, 'thinner than nylon' could lead to a sharper >> tone, >> while thicker could lead to a sweeter one. However, FranAS:ois >> Pizette >> claimed he heard the carbon top string as "colder", and the titanium >> nylon as "warmer". >> Nevertheless, relative top string thickness also plays a role in >> terms >> of feel and playability. It is not easy to "dig into" a thin string, >> although an over thick string could possibly become too damped. >> % >> A comparison between Alliance Savrez carbon and Addario >> Titanium-nylon >> can be heard here on a Ukelele in this You/Tube video (if you have >> the >> patience, as there are two other strings tested): >> [1][1][6][15]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >> % >> One player's comments on this test seem interesting. He says it is >> more >> the feel of the Titanium Nylon he prefers than the sound difference >> with the Savarez: >> "You were the one that goti>>? me into Savarez strings, though I >> still >> prefer my D'Addrios only because they are thicker and give me a >> little >> more "feel" under my fingers." (a Ukele player) >> % >> Is this not why some Baroque lutenist gut users prefer a lower >> diapason >> (say 392 over 415, with the same tension). This also gives a >> thicker >> top string, with more material to "dig into"? >> % >> I think this question may be just as interesting for gut as for >> synthetics users. >> While personally, I have been experimenting with the sound and feel >> of >> gut in relation to hypotheses about historic strings, I am happy to >> report on these synthetic string user's experiments, attempting to >> achieve a better sound and playability with their choice of strings. >> Best regards >> Anthony >> ---- Message d'origine ---- >>> De : "Edward Martin" <[2][7][[email protected]> >>> A : "Edward Mast" <[3][8][17][email protected]>; >>> "Roman Turovsky" <[4][9][18][email protected]> >>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Carbon strings? >>> Date : 04/10/2010 15:10:06 CEST >>> Copie A : "Paul Kieffer" <[5][10][19][email protected]>; >>> "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[6][11][20][email protected]>; >>> [7][12][21][email protected] >>> >>> No, it would have too much tension. The density of carbon is so >> much >>> more than gut, therefore a smaller size is appropriate, around a >> 0.38 >>> or so. Because of the need for a smaller diameter, the sound is >>> certainly more sharp sounding. >>> >>> ed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At 07:50 AM 10/4/2010, Edward Mast wrote: >>>> The .40-.41 mm diameter line sounds like it would be suitable for >>>> the top course, yes? >>> >>> >>> >>> Edward Martin >>> 2817 East 2nd Street >>> Duluth, Minnesota 55812 >>> e-mail: [8][13][[email protected] >>> voice: (218) 728-1202 >>> [2][9][14][23]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref= name >>> [3][10][15][24]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> [4][11][16][25]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> -- >> References >> 1. [12][17][26]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >> 2. [13][18][27]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=na me >> 3. [14][19][28]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> 4. [15][20][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. [21][30]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >> 2. [22][31]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings .com >> 3. [23][32]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] m >> 4. [24][33]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=r.turov...@veri zon.net >> 5. >> [25][34]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.k ieffer@ gmail.com >> 6. [26][35]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] >> 7. [27][36]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] th.edu >> 8. [28][37]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to...@gamutstrings .com >> 9. [29][38]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name >> 10. [30][39]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> 11. [31][40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 12. [32][41]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY >> 13. [33][42]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name >> 14. [34][43]http://www.myspace.com/edslute >> 15. [35][44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > Edward Martin > 2817 East 2nd Street > Duluth, Minnesota 55812 > e-mail: [36][[email protected] > voice: (218) 728-1202 > [37][46]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name > [38][47]http://www.myspace.com/edslute > > > -- References 1. [48]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. [49]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. [50]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. [51]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. [52]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. [53]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 7. [54]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. [55]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. [56]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. [57]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieffer@ gmail.com 11. [58]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. [59]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. [60]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. [61]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 15. [62]http://www.myspace.com/edslute 16. [63]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. [64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 18. [65]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 19. [66]http://www.myspace.com/edslute 20. [67]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 21. [68]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 22. [69]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. [70]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. [71]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 25. [72]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieffer@ gmail.com 26. [73]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. [74]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. [75]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 29. [76]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 30. [77]http://www.myspace.com/edslute 31. [78]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 32. [79]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 33. [80]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 34. [81]http://www.myspace.com/edslute 35. [82]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 36. [83]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. [84]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 38. [85]http://www.myspace.com/edslute -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 16. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 18. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 19. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 20. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 22. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 23. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 24. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 25. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 26. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 27. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 28. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 31. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 32. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 33. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 34. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=paul.nicholas.kieffer@ 35. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 36. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 38. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 39. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 42. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 43. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 45. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 46. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 47. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 48. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 49. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 50. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 51. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 52. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 53. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 54. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 55. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 56. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 57. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 58. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 59. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 60. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 61. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 62. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 63. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 64. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 65. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 66. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 67. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 68. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 69. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 70. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 71. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 72. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 73. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 74. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 75. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 76. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 77. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 78. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 79. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGK8pXqr9yY 80. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 81. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 82. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 83. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 84. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name 85. http://www.myspace.com/edslute
