From: "Christopher Wilke" <[email protected]>
Gary,
--- On Fri, 5/6/11, Gary Digman <[email protected]> wrote:
"...gratuitous dissonance..."?
Gary
To give an example of gratuitous dissonance on baroque lute: if you play
the open first
course and the second fret at the same time, you have a jarring minor
second dissonance.
This type of thing is never found in baroque lute music, especially not at
cadences. It is never > found in pieces by the French lute composers.
Nor the gallant lutenists. And especially not
in the works of Weiss. Never. ;-) (It happens all the time, both
resolved and un-resolved.)
9/10 chords are my particular faves, but they are not gratuitous!
What I think Roman really is talking about is unresolved strong dissonance
(such as frequent > minor seconds and tritones) as a normal language,
often for the sake of obfuscating
otherwise fairly simple harmonic procedures or to avoid a sense of tonal
center.
Or RHYTHM, which is worse.
In this view, harmonic tension, unlike its use in previous eras, is not
employed for dramatic
or narrative effect, but rather as a continuously operative state with
little functionality. Some would
argue that it creates a constant sense of dread and foreboding that never
"goes" anywhere.
I don't mind the latter, but it can be achieved with conventional means as
well, if not better.
For what it's worth, I don't agree with Roman. I think this language can
be as effective as
any other and there is no particular reason why it shouldn't be employed
on lute if that's the
composer's fancy and he or she can use it effectively.
The proof of that would be found in actual music, but we have no effective
lute music of that particular kind to date, for a good reason, I suspect .
Of course, just as in "normal" tonality, there has been a lot of bad music
written using
"gratuitous dissonance."
The "normal" idiom and our reactions to it have a considerable genetic
element in them, and so it is a lot more difficult in it to conseal quality
lapses. In the other idiom the quality is determined by degrees and shades
of insufferability.
In modern circles, however, it has unfortunately become de rigueur to
write this way if you want to be
taken seriously as a composer who is "relevant." (i.e. getting
performances and being awarded grants,
scholarships, faculty positions, etc.)
Chris
And that is depressing, idnit?
RT
Christopher Wilke
Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer
www.christopherwilke.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky"
<[email protected]>
To: "Ron Andrico" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 7:28 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: New blog post
> Ron,
> the questions are totally valid, and 98% of modern
music is in fact ugly.
> This certainly does NOT apply to Gilbert, as his music
is neither ugly nor
> modern (it is jazz-influenced, and as such has a
certainn historicist air to
> it, and it is certainly not modernist).
Jazz-influenced sonorities work well
> on lutes, as evinenced by Edin's renditions of Monk
for example, or Ivano
> Zanenghi's own compositions.
> As to purely mordernist sound - it is utterly
inappropriate for all lutes in
> general, and the baroque lute in particular, as the
acoustical properties
> of the instrument tolerate absolutely no gratuitous
dissonance and/or
> non-traditional methods of producing sound (I had many
discussions apropos
> with Hans Kockelmans, who has a lot of experience both
as a lutenist and an
> avant-garde composer). Modernism on lutes sounds
half-ass at best, and daft
> at worst.
> Only one modernist idiom has some real potential on
lutes, and that is
> Minimalism, due to its adherence to consonance and
rhythmic interest.
> RT
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Andrico"
<[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
> Cc: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:05 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: New blog post
>
>
>> Gilbert, Arto:
>> I don't recall having described
modern music as 'ugly' nor having
>> railed against
inventiveness. My point is just to ask the questions.
>> But I will add that the 16th
century lute was designed for and excels
>> at transparent polyphony and,
while modern chordal sounds can work, I
>> haven't see much polyphonic
writing of new music for the lute.
>> Best wishes,
>> Ron Andrico
>> > Date: Thu, 5 May 2011
16:26:41 +0300
>> > To: [email protected]
>> > CC: [email protected];
[email protected]
>> > From: [email protected]
>> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: New blog
post
>> >
>> >
>> > Yes Gilbert!
>> >
>> > And they were really very
inventive already in 17th cetury; just take
>> a
>> > look to La Comete by
Gallot:
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/11_courseLute/GallotsCometeM.pdf
>> >
>> > Arto
>> >
>> > On Thu, 5 May 2011 15:21:04
+0200, "Gilbert Isbin"
>> > <[email protected]>
wrote:
>> > > Why should a modern
voicing sound ugly on a lute. Play Dm11 for
>> instance.
>> >
>> > > Not bad. Gm13/D .
What's wrong with it ? Sounds very beautiful to
>> me.
>> > >
>> > > Why shouldn't it be
possible to integrate lute techniques in modern
>> lute
>> > > compositions? Try
C9sus4 followed by a bass line, or a single note
>> run on
>> >
>> > > the top voice, or in
the middle voice. Sounds pretty ok to me.
>> > >
>> > > I think people from the
16th century would have a good laugh about
>> this
>> > > discussion. It was a
time in which so many creative things
>> happened. New
>> > > compositional
techniques, new lute techniques, new instruments, ..
>> > >
>> > > Gilbert.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > http://users.telenet.be/gilbert.isbin/contents.html
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message
-----
>> > > From: "Ron Andrico"
<[email protected]>
>> > > To: <[email protected]>
>> > > Sent: Thursday, May 05,
2011 2:06 PM
>> > > Subject: [LUTE] New
blog post
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> To All:
>> > >> We have a new blog
post raising a few questions about modern music
>> on
>> > >> the lute - not
against the idea, by the way.
>> > >> [1]http://mignarda.wordpress.com
>> > >> Ron & Donna
>> > >> --
>> > >>
>> > >> References
>> > >>
>> > >> 1. http://mignarda.wordpress.com/
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> To get on or off
this list see list information at
>> > >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> -----
>> > >> Geen virus gevonden
in dit bericht.
>> > >> Gecontroleerd door
AVG - www.avg.com
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Virusdatabase: 1500/3616 - datum van uitgifte:
>> > >> 05/04/11
>> > >>
>> >
>> >
>> --
>>
>>
>
>
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