Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th course basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with Venice Meanes do seem acceptable. In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because I assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, for a 7 course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the result with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have been better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in the Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more homogenous sound for 5c and 4c. This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available for 4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the Venices had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, as the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se) % Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd has explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different string pattern: "One of my examples from Cutting (not in the message you quote, I think) is the Pavan "Sans per" and its galliard, which makes extensive use of a 7th at D but only makes sense with an octave on the 4th course. This suggests he had good enough strings to be able to do complicated stuff with the 7th course but still used an octave on the 4th (out of tradition? habit? because he simply liked it that way?)."Martin % This rather goes against looking for one "perfect" stringing for a lute (as I admit I was doing), I suppose we should restring for each piece, or ideally have several lutes tuned for the pieces we intend to play. % Martin goes on to explain, that even Dowland's music seems to be calling for octaves on 4 and 5c, in spite of his "theoretical" support of unisson: % "The music often suggests octaves when a cadence is resolved at the "wrong" octave, or a scale passage jumps octave for no apparent reason, or a note which is needed for correct voice leading or point of imitation is apparently missing but supplied by the upper octave of a lower course."(...) % (...) Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6:
-f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!--- -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e- ----------!-------f-e---!-a- -e--a-c-a-!-------------!--- ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c- -c----a---!-d---c-------!--- (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord). Martin" % http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html Regards Anthony __________________________________________________________________ De : Bruno Fournier <[email protected]> A : Anthony Hind <[email protected]> Cc : Miles Dempster <[email protected]>; "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 15h12 Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing I personally like the sound of octaves starting on the 5th course and going down.A I have always found the 4th in octaves to be difficult at tuning.A On my soprano lute 6 course however, I use unisons. A Bruno On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Anthony Hind <[1][1][email protected]> wrote: A You are right of course, A and I do have unissons on the fourth and A fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th. A I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that someone jumped A to the conclusion that because I A had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, which of course A is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and Matthias, for A my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour. A Regards A Anthony A A __________________________________________________________________ A De : Miles Dempster <[2][2][email protected]> A A : Lute List <[3][3][email protected]> A Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43 A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing A My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose of the octave A is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too muddy. A Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the 5th course A doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would need one? A Miles A On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: A > A Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the following: A > A "I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave A > A string A > A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers A (Italians A > A in A > A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that A > A Dentice A > A also had unisons for his 4th course." Mathias A > A I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves on my A > A fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. A > A Regards A > A Anthony A > A A __________________________________________________________________ A > A > A De : Mathias Roesel <[1][4][4][email protected]> A > A A : 'Lute Net' <[2][5][5][email protected]> A > A Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35 A > A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing A >> Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the same A >> compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng: A >> which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of A Fabrice A > A Dentice A >> the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges that A > A satnde A > A twoo and A >> twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, which thei A > A do for A > A a A >> perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which those eight A > A would A >> cause." A >> 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison 5th A > A course, A > A not just a A >> unison 4th. Is this right? A > A I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an octave A > A string A > A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers A (Italians A > A in A > A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer that A > A Dentice A > A also had unisons for his 4th course. A > A Mathias A > A To get on or off this list see list information at A > A [1][3][6][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html A > A > A -- A > A > References A > A > A 1. [4][7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html A > A -- A -- References A 1. mailto:[8][8][email protected] A 2. mailto:[9][9][email protected] A 3. [10][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html A 4. [11][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html -- A Bruno Cognyl-Fournier A [12]www.estavel.org A -- References 1. mailto:[12][email protected] 2. mailto:[13][email protected] 3. mailto:[14][email protected] 4. mailto:[15][email protected] 5. mailto:[16][email protected] 6. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:[19][email protected] 9. mailto:[20][email protected] 10. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. [23]http://www.estavel.org/ -- References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. mailto:[email protected] 16. mailto:[email protected] 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. mailto:[email protected] 21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. http://www.estavel.org/
