On 25/11/2011 23:14, "Martin Eastwell" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi Anthony
>
> Having looked up Martin Shepherd's 2007 post from your link
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html
> I'm quite convinced by the Holborne and Cutting examples he gives-
>
>> Cutting, Galliard, Euing f.29 (Burgers no.22)bar 13:
>>
>> -----------------!-------------
>> -a---a-c-d---b---!-------------
>> ---d-----------a-!-b-a-b-------
>> -----------------!-------------
>> -c---------c-a---!-------a-c---
>> -----------------!-d---------d-
>>
>> (the two notes on the 5th course in the second bar could be an octave
>> higher)
>>
>> Holborne, Patiencia, Euing f.39v. (aus dem Spring no.23) bar 52:
>>
>> --c-----c-------!---
>> --c-----c---f---!-a-
>> --f-e-c-e-f-c-e-!-a-
>> --------e-------!-b-
>> ----------------!-c-
>> --c-------------!---
>> (the "f" on the 2nd course resolves onto the upper octave "b" of the 4th
>> course)
>>
>> Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6:
>>
>> -f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!---
>> -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e-
>> ----------!-------f-e---!-a-
>> -e--a-c-a-!-------------!---
>> ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c-
>> -c----a---!-d---c-------!---
>>
>> (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to
>> connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on
>> courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the
>> "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord)
>>
>> (Yes I know VLL is the very source where Dowland recommends unisons, but
>> this piece was written before 1591 as it appears in Dd.2.11 as "K
>> Darcyes Galliard" (f.59) - K.Darcy became Lady Clifton in 1591).
>>
>> Sorry about the lack of rhythm signs
>
> -less so by the Dowland-I see what he means, but it doesn't sound bad to me.
> In connection with Cutting and Dowland (or has someone already pointed this
> out?), it is worth mentioning that William Barley's "A new book of Tabliture"
> (1596) reprints Le Roy's Instructions, complete with directions for octave
> stringing on courses 4 to 6, and the lute music in the book is all by either
> Dowland or Cutting, and for 6 course lute (though the orpharion and bandora
> sections of the book use 7 courses.
>
> My feeling about octave vs. unison stringing is that it is to some extent
> connected with the change to thumb outside technique. Assuming all gut
> stringing and thumb under technique, my experience of many years is that lutes
> with unison stringing sound rather murky. The basses have lost the brightness
> provided by octave strings, and the warm treble sound inherent in thumb under
> technique seems to merge with them in a rather unsatisfactory manner. Played
> thumb out, where the fingers are significantly closer to the bridge (relative
> to the thumb), the brighter treble seems to be lifted out of the texture by
> virtue of a different tone colour. The comments in the Stobeus Ms instructions
> seem to be thinking along the same lines: "For it has been shown to be much
> better to strike with the thumb outwards. This sounds clearer, crisper and
> brighter. The other sounds very dull and muffled."
> This reminds me very much of the sort of things mix engineers in the rock/pop
> world do. They are very concerned that each instrument in a band should occupy
> its own space in the frequency spectrum, and not get in each other's way.
> Often they will electronically equalise sounds to make this work-for example
> filtering the low frequencies off a strummed acoustic guitar so that it does
> not conflict with the bass. On its own, the guitar sounds poor, but it "sits
> better" in the mix.
> I'll be talking about this and related things at a meeting of the UK Lute
> society in Feb.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Martin (Eastwell, not Shepherd!)
>
> On 25/11/2011 15:54, "Anthony Hind" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th course
>> basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with Venice
>> Meanes do seem acceptable.
>> In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because I
>> assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, for a 7
>> course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the result
>> with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have been
>> better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in the
>> Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more
>> homogenous sound for 5c and 4c.
>> This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have
>> Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available for
>> 4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the Venices
>> had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, as
>> the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se)
>> %
>> Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a
>> particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd has
>> explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different string
>> pattern:
>> "One of my examples from Cutting (not in the message you quote, I
>> think) is the Pavan "Sans per" and its galliard, which makes extensive
>> use of a 7th at D but only makes sense with an octave on the 4th
>> course. This suggests he had good enough strings to be able to do
>> complicated stuff with the 7th course but still used an octave on the
>> 4th (out of tradition? habit? because he simply liked it that
>> way?)."Martin
>> %
>> This rather goes against looking for one "perfect" stringing for a lute
>> (as I admit I was doing), I suppose we should restring for each piece,
>> or ideally have several lutes tuned for the pieces we intend to play.
>> %
>> Martin goes on to explain, that even Dowland's music seems to be
>> calling for octaves on 4 and 5c, in spite of his "theoretical" support
>> of unisson:
>> %
>> "The music often suggests octaves when a cadence is resolved at the
>> "wrong" octave, or a scale passage jumps octave for no apparent reason,
>> or a note which is needed for correct voice leading or point of
>> imitation is apparently missing but supplied by the upper octave of a
>> lower course."(...)
>> %
>> (...)
>> Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6:
>>
>> -f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!---
>> -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e-
>> ----------!-------f-e---!-a-
>> -e--a-c-a-!-------------!---
>> ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c-
>> -c----a---!-d---c-------!---
>>
>> (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to
>> connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on
>> courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the
>> "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord). Martin"
>> %
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html
>> Regards
>> Anthony
>>
>> __________________________________________________________________
>>
>> De : Bruno Fournier <[email protected]>
>> A : Anthony Hind <[email protected]>
>> Cc : Miles Dempster <[email protected]>; "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 15h12
>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
>> I personally like the sound of octaves starting on the 5th course and
>> going down.A I have always found the 4th in octaves to be difficult
>> at
>> tuning.A On my soprano lute 6 course however, I use unisons.
>> A
>> Bruno
>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Anthony Hind
>> <[1][1][email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> A You are right of course, A and I do have unissons on the fourth
>> and
>> A fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th.
>> A I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that someone
>> jumped
>> A to the conclusion that because I
>> A had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, which of
>> course
>> A is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and Matthias,
>> for
>> A my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour.
>> A Regards
>> A Anthony
>> A A
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> A De : Miles Dempster <[2][2][email protected]>
>> A A : Lute List <[3][3][email protected]>
>> A Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43
>> A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
>> A My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose of the
>> octave
>> A is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too
>> muddy.
>> A Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the 5th
>> course
>> A doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would need
>> one?
>> A Miles
>> A On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote:
>> A > A Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the
>> following:
>> A > A "I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an
>> octave
>> A > A string
>> A > A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers
>> A (Italians
>> A > A in
>> A > A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer
>> that
>> A > A Dentice
>> A > A also had unisons for his 4th course." Mathias
>> A > A I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves
>> on
>> my
>> A > A fourth, but perhaps I have missed something.
>> A > A Regards
>> A > A Anthony
>> A > A
>> A
>> __________________________________________________________________
>> A >
>> A > A De : Mathias Roesel <[1][4][4][email protected]>
>> A > A A : 'Lute Net' <[2][5][5][email protected]>
>> A > A Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35
>> A > A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing
>> A >> Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the
>> same
>> A >> compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng:
>> A >> which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of
>> A Fabrice
>> A > A Dentice
>> A >> the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges
>> that
>> A > A satnde
>> A > A twoo and
>> A >> twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes,
>> which
>> thei
>> A > A do for
>> A > A a
>> A >> perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which
>> those
>> eight
>> A > A would
>> A >> cause."
>> A >> 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison
>> 5th
>> A > A course,
>> A > A not just a
>> A >> unison 4th. Is this right?
>> A > A I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an
>> octave
>> A > A string
>> A > A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers
>> A (Italians
>> A > A in
>> A > A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer
>> that
>> A > A Dentice
>> A > A also had unisons for his 4th course.
>> A > A Mathias
>> A > A To get on or off this list see list information at
>> A >
>> A
>> [1][3][6][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> A >
>> A > A --
>> A >
>> A > References
>> A >
>> A > A 1.
>> [4][7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> A >
>> A --
>> A --
>> References
>> A 1. mailto:[8][8][email protected]
>> A 2. mailto:[9][9][email protected]
>> A 3.
>> [10][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> A 4.
>> [11][11]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> --
>> A
>> Bruno Cognyl-Fournier
>> A
>> [12]www.estavel.org
>> A
>> --
>> References
>> 1. mailto:[12][email protected]
>> 2. mailto:[13][email protected]
>> 3. mailto:[14][email protected]
>> 4. mailto:[15][email protected]
>> 5. mailto:[16][email protected]
>> 6. [17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 7. [18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 8. mailto:[19][email protected]
>> 9. mailto:[20][email protected]
>> 10. [21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 11. [22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 12. [23]http://www.estavel.org/
>>
>> --
>>
>> References
>>
>> 1. mailto:[email protected]
>> 2. mailto:[email protected]
>> 3. mailto:[email protected]
>> 4. mailto:[email protected]
>> 5. mailto:[email protected]
>> 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 8. mailto:[email protected]
>> 9. mailto:[email protected]
>> 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 11. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 12. mailto:[email protected]
>> 13. mailto:[email protected]
>> 14. mailto:[email protected]
>> 15. mailto:[email protected]
>> 16. mailto:[email protected]
>> 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 19. mailto:[email protected]
>> 20. mailto:[email protected]
>> 21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 23. http://www.estavel.org/
>>
