Not relevant to the period of lute playing you're discussing, but you may be interested to know that the double strung gallichon/mandora (late 17th/18thC) generally had octaves on the 5th and 6th courses (sometimes on the 4th too) - even though they employed overwound strings!
Martyn --- On Sat, 26/11/11, Martin Shepherd <[email protected]> wrote: From: Martin Shepherd <[email protected]> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing To: "Martin Eastwell" <[email protected]>, "Lute List" <[email protected]> Date: Saturday, 26 November, 2011, 11:09 Hi Martin, I agree with what you say about the change to thumb outside. I've been meaning to write an article about octave stringing for Lute News for a long time, with some more choice examples from the English repertoire. Thanks to selective quotation of Dowland from VLL, and long-held beliefs of Julian Bream and others, it has become a commonplace belief that octave stringing was a pesky foreign affectation and the true blue British method was unisons - which is the contrary of what Dowland actually says. Rather than write it all again, you might be interested to read what I wrote for Rob MacKillop's Dowland page: [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/DowlandsLutes.htm (and [2]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/ornamentation.htm) Best wishes, Martin On 25/11/2011 23:16, Martin Eastwell wrote: > > > On 25/11/2011 23:14, "Martin Eastwell"<[3][email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Anthony >> >> Having looked up Martin Shepherd's 2007 post from your link >> [4]http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html >> I'm quite convinced by the Holborne and Cutting examples he gives- >> >>> Cutting, Galliard, Euing f.29 (Burgers no.22)bar 13: >>> >>> -----------------!------------- >>> -a---a-c-d---b---!------------- >>> ---d-----------a-!-b-a-b------- >>> -----------------!------------- >>> -c---------c-a---!-------a-c--- >>> -----------------!-d---------d- >>> >>> (the two notes on the 5th course in the second bar could be an octave >>> higher) >>> >>> Holborne, Patiencia, Euing f.39v. (aus dem Spring no.23) bar 52: >>> >>> --c-----c-------!--- >>> --c-----c---f---!-a- >>> --f-e-c-e-f-c-e-!-a- >>> --------e-------!-b- >>> ----------------!-c- >>> --c-------------!--- >>> (the "f" on the 2nd course resolves onto the upper octave "b" of the 4th >>> course) >>> >>> Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6: >>> >>> -f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!--- >>> -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e- >>> ----------!-------f-e---!-a- >>> -e--a-c-a-!-------------!--- >>> ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c- >>> -c----a---!-d---c-------!--- >>> >>> (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to >>> connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on >>> courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the >>> "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord) >>> >>> (Yes I know VLL is the very source where Dowland recommends unisons, but >>> this piece was written before 1591 as it appears in Dd.2.11 as "K >>> Darcyes Galliard" (f.59) - K.Darcy became Lady Clifton in 1591). >>> >>> Sorry about the lack of rhythm signs >> -less so by the Dowland-I see what he means, but it doesn't sound bad to me. >> In connection with Cutting and Dowland (or has someone already pointed this >> out?), it is worth mentioning that William Barley's "A new book of Tabliture" >> (1596) reprints Le Roy's Instructions, complete with directions for octave >> stringing on courses 4 to 6, and the lute music in the book is all by either >> Dowland or Cutting, and for 6 course lute (though the orpharion and bandora >> sections of the book use 7 courses. >> >> My feeling about octave vs. unison stringing is that it is to some extent >> connected with the change to thumb outside technique. Assuming all gut >> stringing and thumb under technique, my experience of many years is that lutes >> with unison stringing sound rather murky. The basses have lost the brightness >> provided by octave strings, and the warm treble sound inherent in thumb under >> technique seems to merge with them in a rather unsatisfactory manner. Played >> thumb out, where the fingers are significantly closer to the bridge (relative >> to the thumb), the brighter treble seems to be lifted out of the texture by >> virtue of a different tone colour. The comments in the Stobeus Ms instructions >> seem to be thinking along the same lines: "For it has been shown to be much >> better to strike with the thumb outwards. This sounds clearer, crisper and >> brighter. The other sounds very dull and muffled." >> This reminds me very much of the sort of things mix engineers in the rock/pop >> world do. They are very concerned that each instrument in a band should occupy >> its own space in the frequency spectrum, and not get in each other's way. >> Often they will electronically equalise sounds to make this work-for example >> filtering the low frequencies off a strummed acoustic guitar so that it does >> not conflict with the bass. On its own, the guitar sounds poor, but it "sits >> better" in the mix. >> I'll be talking about this and related things at a meeting of the UK Lute >> society in Feb. >> >> Best wishes >> >> Martin (Eastwell, not Shepherd!) >> >> On 25/11/2011 15:54, "Anthony Hind"<[5][email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Bruno, I think it may depend on the stringing you use. Some 5th course >>> basses really do need octave stringing, but 5c unissons with Venice >>> Meanes do seem acceptable. >>> In fact, I adopted this pattern, with unissons from 5c up, because I >>> assumed it to be a possible historical late renaissance tuning, for a 7 >>> course lute with the 7th tuned to D ; but didn't quite like the result >>> with a pair of 5c unisson Lyons. The Lyons would no doubt have been >>> better with an octave, but what bothered me was a sort of break in the >>> Meanes area, between the 5c Lyons and the 4c HTs. I wanted a more >>> homogenous sound for 5c and 4c. >>> This was the reason for which I adopted Venices, as I could have >>> Venices unissons both on 5 and 4c (there are no Lyons available for >>> 4c). I felt the result was both more Meanes homogenous, and the Venices >>> had sufficient harmonicity, not to absolutely cry out for octaves, as >>> the Lyons did (nothing wrong with the lyons per se) >>> % >>> Like yourself, I was striving to achieve the best sound with a >>> particular lute type and stringing; however, as Martin Shepherd has >>> explained, the music might actually indicate quite a different string >>> pattern: >>> "One of my examples from Cutting (not in the message you quote, I >>> think) is the Pavan "Sans per" and its galliard, which makes extensive >>> use of a 7th at D but only makes sense with an octave on the 4th >>> course. This suggests he had good enough strings to be able to do >>> complicated stuff with the 7th course but still used an octave on the >>> 4th (out of tradition? habit? because he simply liked it that >>> way?)."Martin >>> % >>> This rather goes against looking for one "perfect" stringing for a lute >>> (as I admit I was doing), I suppose we should restring for each piece, >>> or ideally have several lutes tuned for the pieces we intend to play. >>> % >>> Martin goes on to explain, that even Dowland's music seems to be >>> calling for octaves on 4 and 5c, in spite of his "theoretical" support >>> of unisson: >>> % >>> "The music often suggests octaves when a cadence is resolved at the >>> "wrong" octave, or a scale passage jumps octave for no apparent reason, >>> or a note which is needed for correct voice leading or point of >>> imitation is apparently missing but supplied by the upper octave of a >>> lower course."(...) >>> % >>> (...) >>> Dowland, Queen Elizabeth's Galliard, VLL Galliard 2(Poulton no.41) bar 6: >>> >>> -f--c-d---!-a-----c---a-!--- >>> -c--a-a---!-a-----c-----!-e- >>> ----------!-------f-e---!-a- >>> -e--a-c-a-!-------------!--- >>> ----c-----!-e-c---------!-c- >>> -c----a---!-d---c-------!--- >>> >>> (the descending scale c4, a4, e5, c5 needs to be an octave higher to >>> connect with the f3 in the 4/3 suspension at the cadence. Octaves on >>> courses 4 and 5 solve the problem. Octave on course 5 also allows the >>> "e" to resolve at the correct octavein the final chord). Martin" >>> % >>> [6]http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html >>> Regards >>> Anthony >>> >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> De : Bruno Fournier<[7][email protected]> >>> A : Anthony Hind<[8][email protected]> >>> Cc : Miles Dempster<[9][email protected]>; "[10][email protected]" >>> <[11][email protected]> >>> Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 15h12 >>> Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>> I personally like the sound of octaves starting on the 5th course and >>> going down.A I have always found the 4th in octaves to be difficult >>> at >>> tuning.A On my soprano lute 6 course however, I use unisons. >>> A >>> Bruno >>> On Fri, Nov 25, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Anthony Hind >>> <[1][1][12][email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> A You are right of course, A and I do have unissons on the fourth >>> and >>> A fifth, but octaves beginning on the 6th. >>> A I wasn't thinking straight, but vaguely remembering that someone >>> jumped >>> A to the conclusion that because I >>> A had unissons on the fifth I also had them on the sixth, which of >>> course >>> A is not at all the same thing. Appologies, Miles and Matthias, >>> for >>> A my half-awake state, in spite of the late hour. >>> A Regards >>> A Anthony >>> A A >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>> A De : Miles Dempster<[2][2][13][email protected]> >>> A A : Lute List<[3][3][14][email protected]> >>> A Envoye le : Vendredi 25 Novembre 2011 14h43 >>> A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>> A My understanding is that, generally speaking, the purpose of the >>> octave >>> A is to brighten up a course which would otherwise sound too >>> muddy. >>> A Since 'muddiness' increases with string thickness, if the 5th >>> course >>> A doesn't need an octave, then why would the 4th course would need >>> one? >>> A Miles >>> A On 2011-11-25, at 8:04 AM, Anthony Hind wrote: >>> A> A Matthias, I am not quite sure why we may infer the >>> following: >>> A> A "I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an >>> octave >>> A> A string >>> A> A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers >>> A (Italians >>> A> A in >>> A> A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer >>> that >>> A> A Dentice >>> A> A also had unisons for his 4th course." Mathias >>> A> A I have unissons on the 5th course of my 7c lute, but octaves >>> on >>> my >>> A> A fourth, but perhaps I have missed something. >>> A> A Regards >>> A> A Anthony >>> A> A >>> A >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>> A> >>> A> A De : Mathias Roesel<[1][4][4][15][email protected]> >>> A> A A : 'Lute Net'<[2][5][5][16][email protected]> >>> A> A Envoye le : Jeudi 24 Novembre 2011 17h35 >>> A> A Objet : [LUTE] Re: Le Roy Dentice and Octave stringing >>> A>> Neverthelesse the Tune self of the same .F. Is found in the >>> same >>> A>> compainie, and eight of the greate fift stryng: >>> A>> which reason could not be in Lutes, tuned after the manner of >>> A Fabrice >>> A> A Dentice >>> A>> the Italian, and other his followers. Where those strynges >>> that >>> A> A satnde >>> A> A twoo and >>> A>> twoo together, bee sette in one Tune and not by eightes, >>> which >>> thei >>> A> A do for >>> A> A a >>> A>> perfection of harmonie, in avoiding many unissons, which >>> those >>> eight >>> A> A would >>> A>> cause." >>> A>> 2. I understand Le Roy is saying that Dentice used a unison >>> 5th >>> A> A course, >>> A> A not just a >>> A>> unison 4th. Is this right? >>> A> A I understand the author as saying that a) he himself has an >>> octave >>> A> A string >>> A> A with his 5th course, as opposed to b) Dentice and followers >>> A (Italians >>> A> A in >>> A> A general?) who have unisons for the 5th course. One may infer >>> that >>> A> A Dentice >>> A> A also had unisons for his 4th course. >>> A> A Mathias >>> A> A To get on or off this list see list information at >>> A> >>> A >>> [1][3][6][6][17]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> A> >>> A> A -- >>> A> >>> A> References >>> A> >>> A> A 1. >>> [4][7][7][18]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> A> >>> A -- >>> A -- >>> References >>> A 1. mailto:[8][8][19][email protected] >>> A 2. mailto:[9][9][20][email protected] >>> A 3. >>> [10][10][21]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> A 4. >>> [11][11][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> -- >>> A >>> Bruno Cognyl-Fournier >>> A >>> [12]www.estavel.org >>> A >>> -- >>> References >>> 1. mailto:[12][23][email protected] >>> 2. mailto:[13][24][email protected] >>> 3. mailto:[14][25][email protected] >>> 4. mailto:[15][26][email protected] >>> 5. mailto:[16][27][email protected] >>> 6. [17][28]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 7. [18][29]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 8. mailto:[19][30][email protected] >>> 9. mailto:[20][31][email protected] >>> 10. [21][32]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 11. [22][33]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 12. [23][34]http://www.estavel.org/ >>> >>> -- >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. mailto:[35][email protected] >>> 2. mailto:[36][email protected] >>> 3. mailto:[37][email protected] >>> 4. mailto:[38][email protected] >>> 5. mailto:[39][email protected] >>> 6. [40]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 7. [41]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 8. mailto:[42][email protected] >>> 9. mailto:[43][email protected] >>> 10. [44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 11. [45]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 12. mailto:[46][email protected] >>> 13. mailto:[47][email protected] >>> 14. mailto:[48][email protected] >>> 15. mailto:[49][email protected] >>> 16. mailto:[50][email protected] >>> 17. [51]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 18. [52]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 19. mailto:[53][email protected] >>> 20. mailto:[54][email protected] >>> 21. [55]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 22. [56]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 23. [57]http://www.estavel.org/ >>> > > -- References 1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/DowlandsLutes.htm 2. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/ornamentation.htm 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg19978.html 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 18. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 19. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 20. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 21. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 22. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 23. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 28. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 29. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 32. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 33. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 34. http://www.estavel.org/ 35. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 36. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 37. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 38. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 39. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 40. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 41. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 42. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 43. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 45. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 46. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 47. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 48. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 49. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 50. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 51. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 52. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 53. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 54. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 55. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 56. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 57. http://www.estavel.org/
