Dear Shaun, With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below
regards Martyn --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng <[email protected]> wrote: From: Shaun Ng <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> Cc: "Lute Dmth" <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 Dear Martyn, Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? Shaun On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson <[1][email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Shaun, > > You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on > lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect > to find?' > > The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume > you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very > low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by > loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before > 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common > for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. > > But we've all been here before.................. > > regards > > Martyn > > From: Shaun Ng <[2][email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to > rot according to Mace? > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3][email protected]> > Cc: "Lute Dmth" <[4][email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 > > Dear Martyn, > Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I > do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I > know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string > is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used > a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both > these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. > But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For > loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? > Shaun Ng > On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson <[1][5][email protected]> > wrote: >> >> Dear Shaun, >> >> When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, > coloured >> strings on the basses of lutes.......', what do you mean by >> 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so >> precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; > better >> than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than > what? >> >> And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the >> numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings > were >> new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 "Goretsky hath an invention > of >> lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most >> admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] "String of guts done about with >> silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys > invention") >> and 1664 John Playford: "An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...": >> There is a late invention of strings...... it is a small wire > twisted >> or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk...". Were they making it up > as >> being a new invention? >> >> MH >> >> --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[2][6][email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Shaun Ng <[3][7][email protected]> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >> To: "<[4][8][email protected]>" <[5][9][email protected]> >> Cc: "<[6][10][email protected]>" <[7][11][email protected]> >> Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 >> >> Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical >> stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no >> evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured > strings >> on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a >> technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit > too >> late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way > to >> get credible information about musical instruments anyway. >> Shaun Ng >> 0426240 775 | [1][8][12][email protected] | shaunng.blogspot.com >> On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <[2][9][13][email protected]> wrote: >>> Dear Anthony, >>> >>> Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said >> before, the >>> change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and >> then >>> traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer >> messages. >>> I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. >>> You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will >> try to >>> address them separately. >>> >>> ROTTEN GUT >>> >>> Obviously the word "rotten" can have at least 2 meanings, however I >> am >>> afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut >> strings. >>> Just one example: >>> >>> "for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of >> the >>> string" >>> >>> The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of >> Music's >>> Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This >> can't be >>> coincidental. >>> Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that >> decay >>> process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, > namely: >> 1/ >>> none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric >> man >>> thence unreliable source of historical information. >>> I would like to challenge both of these notions. >>> >>> 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance >> so if >>> unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings > are >> very >>> well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times >> gut was >>> treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum >> (as >>> Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string >>> manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very >> easily >>> during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. > The >> porous >>> structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string >> makes it >>> even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate > conditions >> that >>> people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. >> (maybe >>> excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not >> difficult >>> to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a >> central >>> heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In >> that >>> light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and >> even his >>> amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical. > We >> don't >>> know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in >> England >>> it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this: >> "for the >>> bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist weather >>> constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc." I can only try >> to >>> imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore > Mace >> says >>> that old lutes are better than new because: "if this >>> thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such >> usage; how >>> much more easily then, must a lute (made of gentle wood, and so very >> thin) >>> with such like ill usage decay? Yet we see, that many lutes there > are >> of a >>> great age and I myself have at this present a lute made of ayre, > that >> is >>> above 100 years old, a very strong lute..." To complement this >> picture one >>> has to add the level of hygiene and knowledge of elementary >> microbiological >>> processes during that time. We don't even know under what conditions >> strings >>> were transported and stored before selling by merchants. >>> I am not surprised Mace writes a lot about rotting strings and even >> whole >>> instruments. >>> >>> COLOURED STRINGS >>> >>> Since I began to play lutes which was many years ago, the passage >> from >>> chapter VI p.65-66, was always interpreted one way, suggesting that >> the red >>> colour of Pistoys is something different than gut colours described >> further >>> under a heading of "coloured strings". I don't know who was the >> initial >>> source of this information, but it must have been suggested very > long >> time >>> ago. Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, people repeat ideas >> without >>> considering another possibilities. >>> >>> Mace writes: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very > good; >> But >>> the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, >> commonly >>> rotten, sometimes green very good." >>> >>> Lets presume that as you suggest he is talking only about some > shades >> of >>> clear gut strings. Now, I have to ask this question - have you ever >> seen a >>> clear gut string which would have a blue, green or red shade ? Hm, I >> haven't, >>> and I am afraid this is not the same type of question as - have you >> ever >>> seen decaying gut string. Why? Because decay of a gut is possible > and >> it's >>> only a matter of some conditions that could trigger this process, >> whereas >>> such a palette of colours understood as a raw gut shading (without >> any >>> additional procedure like dyeing) is very unlikely, because we use >> very >>> similar if not identical processes to make HT or LT gut strings. I >> have seen >>> only gut strings that were either clear, yellowish or whitish. >> Besides the >>> heading of this paragraph would be something like "Minikins" if Mace >> had >>> thought of clear trebles. On the other hand the process of dyeing >> strings in >>> 17-18c. seams to be proved at least for harps. If for harps, why not >> for >>> lutes? Mace clearly writes that bass strings were: "commonly dyed, >> with a >>> deep dark red colour". If basses were coloured then other strings >> could be >>> dyed too, as some iconography confirms like Van der Bilcius's >> painting. >>> Strings could have been dyed for several reasons: 1/ some >> manufactures could >>> want to stand out from a competition 2/ for ease of playing (finding >> a >>> proper string with a finger) especially for beginners (amateurs) 3/ >> for >>> aesthetic reasons etc. >>> I don't know why dyed strings for lutes are so rare nowadays. As far >> as I >>> know Dan sells some red gut strings, but no other colours (anyone >> ells?). >>> Why aren't they more popular? They would sell easily IMO. Maybe >> that's an >>> idea for some string manufactures? >>> >>> PISTOYS >>> >>> "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, >> which I >>> conceive are none other than thick Venice-Catlines, which are >> commonly dyed, >>> with a deep dark red colour. They are indeed the very best for the >> basses, >>> being smooth and well-twisted strings, but are hard to come by;" MM >> p.66 >>> >>> This passage is often quoted in the context of loaded strings. Mace >> calls >>> this another sort of strings Pistoy basses and suggests that they > are >> (and >>> this part draws my attention) "none other than thick >> Venice-Catlines". Why >>> "none other than"? Maybe because they were imported and people > didn't >> know >>> how they were produced so they speculated about it. However for Mace >> they >>> looked and worked exactly like thick Venice-Catlines. Normaly >>> Venice-Catlines were manufactured in Bologna, but then transported > to >> Venice >>> (that's why the name Venice). The "Catline" part of the name comes >> from >>> naval terminology. Catline on a ship was a very elastic rope used to >> lash an >>> anchor to a "cathead" which was a special beam. The rope had to be >> extremely >>> flexible. Therefore they were twisted from several ropes in opposite >>> directions. Very similar construction was later used for production >> of >>> middle register lute strings. Not much was written about their use >> for >>> basses though, however Mace's statement could correspond well with >> George >>> Stoppani's idea of rope strings. Ephraim Segerman suggested once > that >> to >>> make a proper Venice-Catline bass string one would have to use a >> special >>> Catline twisting process. Only this could produce an extremely >> elastic >>> Catline rope-like string. Normally I use Venice-Catlines for middle >>> register, but haven't tried Stoppani's or Gamut's Pistoys for basses >> yet. >>> However some reports are very promising. >>> How about a deep dark red colour? Mace claims they were commonly >> dyed. He >>> hadn't noticed anything unusual about them like rare thickness, >>> construction, weight etc. >>> Then, how about loading? >>> >>> LOADED STRINGS >>> >>> Nothing can be excluded just by reading MM, but there are no traces >> that >>> could point to loading in Mace's text. Personally I don't think the >> sentence >>> about Pistoys can be used as an argument in favour of loaded gut >> theory. >>> Pistoy (thick Venice-Catline) roped string is good enough to cope >> with a >>> problem of dull sounding basses, and loading is not necessary in > this >> case. >>> It could however have been loaded during light saturation process >> which was >>> to protect against decay, but this is only a guess as Mace says >> nothing >>> about it. The historical evidence on string manufacturing doesn't >> help >>> either. >>> There is a very detailed description of gut string manufacturing in >> 18c. >>> France in "Encyclopedie ou dictionnaire raisonne de sciences, des >> arts et >>> des metiers" by Denis Diderot and Jean le Rond D'Alembert from >> 1751-65, >>> under an entry of Boyaudier or Corde. It describes even > over-spinning >> of gut >>> with a wire. All stages from a raw material to a ready string are >> covered >>> including such details as clothes used by workers during production >> and all >>> needed accessories. Unfortunately there is no mention of a "loading" >> stage. >>> It would be quite difficult to keep away such a messy business as >> loading >>> from an inquisitive eye of Diderot. It is possible that after 1750 >> loaded >>> strings were already out of use as overwound basses were > manufactured >> as he >>> describes their production in detail. However he also says that the >> best >>> strings come from Rome, and later that Italians have their secrets, >> which >>> they do not communicate to strangers. On the other hand neither >> Barbieri's >>> (as you rightly pointed out) nor Philip Skippon's description of gut >>> production in Italy confirms this. This could indicate that in Italy >> it >>> would be rather a speciality treatment kept in secret but not a >> common >>> procedure. >>> All in all, coming back to my question concerning a connection >> between red >>> colour of strings Mace described, loading and decay, I'd say that > the >>> strings he described weren't loaded, or if they were it was rather >>> non-invasive process which didn't change the string properties in a >> way it >>> would be visible to an eye (like unusual diameter). At least Mace >> haven't >>> noticed it. One could say that he didn't mention it because it was >> obvious >>> that all basses would be loaded. This is exactly the point were my >> question >>> originated from. If bridge holes on his lute were so tiny that he >> could use >>> only heavily loaded bass strings, then how was it possible that he >> used >>> Lyons which were ordinary thick gut strings often rotten (according >> to Mace >>> , not loaded) interchangeably with Pistoys (which are suggested to > be >>> loaded) ? Moreover Diderot's description coincide with Lady Susi >> Jeans's in >>> "Manufacture of strings in England". Again, no sign of loading. I am >> not >>> trying to say that the loaded gut theory can't be true. On the >> contrary, >>> modern loaded gut strings are good alternative for basses in case of >>> stringing some 17c. lutes, no matter how they will prove to be >> historical in >>> future. We discuss only Mace's remarks, and these are only some of > my >>> impressions after reading chapter VI of MM once more. >>> >>> ECCENTRIC MACE >>> >>> This a very difficult subject. There is a little bit of psychology >> and >>> philosophy in it ,so probably someone that is a professional could >> say much >>> more (and better) than me, but I have a feeling that it's very >> relative. >>> Reading a book such as Music's Monument is like time-traveling. You >> go back >>> in time, and the same time you enter absolutely unknown reality. You >> try to >>> project your experiences into the past, but unfortunately it doesn't >> work. >>> Well, you may think it does, but it doesn't. >>> Eccentricity is usually measured by a comparison to the general >> public's >>> standards. If you compared Mace to our modern society he would be >> terribly >>> eccentric. We are used to reading of old texts, and in spite they >> feel very >>> old-fashioned there is some level of universalism that one can > relate >> to. In >>> most books from that time there are things that a modern reader > would >> most >>> probably skip. When Burwell writes on many pages about Angels, the >> most >>> usual reaction would be that she is a little bit potty in this >> matter, but >>> in general it's easier to accept some unusual believes as most > people >> know >>> something about basic concepts of spiritual life in old ages. > However >> Music's >>> Monument is more unique as it is more personal. It shows Mace's most >>> personal views and ideas. One of the reasons for that is that > Music's >>> Monument wasn't written just for one rich sponsor (which would be a >> normal >>> way to go) like a king/queen, prince/princesse etc. He wrote it >> encouraged >>> by some of his pupils, and printed using his own means and those >> collected >>> from subscribers, however he says: "It cannot well be afforded at >> that price >>> (12s.), to return me any tollerable, or reasonable requital." >>> On the subscription list there are around 300 names among which > there >> are >>> only 2 barons, 4 baronets, 2 bishops, 4 knights - the rest being >> scholars, >>> clergyman and ordinary gentleman. Not writing for a court he took a >>> different attitude: "But if I had only to have spoke to those of >> experience >>> and to show the elegancy of my tongue, I should have contriv'd my >> discourse >>> into another shape; But in that I intend it chiefly for learners, I >> conceive >>> I have not spoke much too much." If he was to write for a king he >> would be >>> afraid of saying much too much, and eccentricity of his book would > be >>> comparable to some French tutors written for a court. >>> >>> Therefore, when reading Music's Monument one has to remember that if >> we were >>> allowed to spend just an hour in the reality people in 17c. lived > in, >> we >>> would be extremely surprised by some standards they were used to. It >> is in >>> fact like traveling to another planet, and we can not do justice to >> this >>> kind of sources without making some necessary adjustments. >>> >>> It was a pleasure to talk to you again Anthony. >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Jaroslaw >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" >> <[3][10][14][email protected]> >>> To: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[4][11][15][email protected]> >>> Cc: <[5][12][16][email protected]> >>> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:19 PM >>> Subject: [LUTE] Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >>> >>> >>>> Dear Jaroslaw >>>> A' A' A' A' As promised, back now in Paris, I will try to >>>> respond, with a few new thoughts on Mace's string remarks, along >> with >>>> the old, as when we talked last at >>>> [6][13][17]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 >>>> MaceA-c-s remarks can be found at >>>> [7][14][18]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm >>>> But the CNRS facsimile is such a bargain, every lutenist should >> surely have >>>> one; unless, like a lute maker I know, you are lucky enough to be >> given >>>> an original edition for your birthday ... >>>> % >>>> First, I must say that my previous message, about loaded strings >> being fairly >>>> immune to humidity, only concerned modern loaded strings, which are >>>> coated with copper in a sort of glue. If historic "deep dark red" >>>> Pistoys had been loaded through saturation, with say a solution of >> red >>>> mercury oxide (akin to a dyeing procin to a dyeing process), I >> donA-c-t know if they would >>>> have been quite so immune to water absorption. But probably oxide >>>> loading (rather like salting hams) might have prevented them >> rotting, or >>>> at leastA' slowed the process down (are there any chemists among > you >> who >>>> could say if this is likely?). >>>> % >>>> I will reply to your messages, but breaking up my responses to >> lighten the load: >>>> I) Why MaceA-c-s Pistoy Basses dyed Deep dark red are quite >> different from >>>> his omnipurpose plain red coloured strings, and are not therefore >>>> particularly prone to rotting according to Mace. >>>> II) How reliable, and not just excentric, is Mace, a few arguments >> in his favour? >>>> A) Meanes used for octaves? B) Why were the Lyons Burwell thought > so >> good, >>>> now so bad, according to Mace? (some data on out sourcing from >>>> Barbieri) >>>> % >>>> I) Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >>>> In relation to the rotting tendency of red strings, you ask me, >>>> A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' "how will you explain a >> quote from Mace p.66: >>>>> A' A' "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very >> good; yet but >>>>> A' A' seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or > of >> the decay >>>>> A' A' of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, >> very good; >>>>> A' A' but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly >> rotten." >>>>> A' A' As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of >> loaded >>>>> A' A' string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly >> rotten?" Jaroslaw >>>> Perhaps the "underlying" question, here (please tell me if I am >> wrong), is >>>> whether, when Mace describes Red coloured strings as "commonly >> rotten" >>>> (your quote above), he is including in this description, all red >> strings >>>> without exception (dyed or coloured), even those from Pistoy, which >> are >>>> dyedA' "deep dark red". In other words, is he saying Pistoys are >>>> commonly rotten? and if so, would this rule them out as being > loaded >>>> strings? >>>> % >>>> Here, is my reasoning: Mace had a very strong preoccupation with >> rotten gut, >>>> clearly from personal experience (althoughxperience (although I > have >> never encountered this >>>> problem), and he therefore gives detailed advice on how to store >>>> strings to make sure they don't "take any wet, or moist air." >> Further, >>>> whenever he mentions a string liable to rot, he immediately states >> this >>>> within the next few sentences, as in all these cases : >>>> "There is a small sort of lyons, which many use for the Octaves. > But >> I care >>>> not for them, they being constantly rotten, and good for little, > but >> to >>>> make frets of." >>>> (...) >>>> "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; >> yet, but >>>> seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the >> decay >>>> of the string." >>>> (...) >>>> "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; But the >> best (to my >>>> observation) was always the clear Blue; the Red, commonly rotten, >>>> sometimes green, very good." >>>> % >>>> It would therefore be very surprising if he had not done the same >> for >>>> Pistoy Basses, if he had really thought they were often rotten, >>>> especially as they were rare. Why allow a student to waste time >>>> searching them out, if they are both rare, and often rottenA' ? But >> he >>>> only speaks of their excellent quality (next to the heading, "And >> what >>>> sort of strings are best?"), and clearly contrasts them with the >>>> inferior Lyons, "They are indeed the very best, for the basses, >> being >>>> smooth and well twisted strings, but are hard to come by; however >> out of >>>> a good parcel of Lyons strings, you may (with care) pick those > which >>>> serve very well." Wouldn't he have immediately (within the next few >>>> sentences) warned the reader about this danger, if there had been >> any; >>>> but follows a number of paragraphs, in which he explains "How to >> chuse >>>> your strings", giving rules for choosingA' Minikins, Venice > Catlins, >> and >>>> Lyons, but not for Pistoys, presumably either because they are too >> rare, >>>> or because they are always good, in which case just the "deep dark >>>> red", is sign enough to vouch for this stringA-c-s quality. During >> these >>>> explanations, he again insists that Lyons basses are inferior ey > are >> much more inferior strings than the other", but he does >>>> not extend this criticism to Pistoys, which seem therefore to be >>>> unparalleled in quality (indeed "the other" may actually be >> referring >>>> back to "Pistoys", the other type of bass string). >>>> % >>>> Finally, under the completely new heading "Coloured strings", he >> talks of >>>> yellowish, clear blue, red, and green strings, without giving any >>>> indication of their use (while for all strings with a name which at >>>> least originally implied a provenance, Minikin, Venices, Lyons, and >>>> Pistoys, he took great care to discuss their uses. In this he does >>>> exactly the same as Dowland, who mentions the same colours., but >> gives >>>> no indication of their use (while he does for other string types)A' >> : >>>> "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the >> lightest >>>> colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the >>>> Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) >>>> [8][15][19]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm >>>> % >>>> I suppose there are three possible interpretations for this,A' : 1) >> the >>>> colours discussed could be a natural coloration that can effect ANY >>>> string type, except possibly Pistoys which are dyed dark red > already >>>> (indeed there are naturally coloured yellow, and brown strings, I >> have >>>> yellow and brown Venices, there are also red and black, but perhaps >> not >>>> green and blueA' ?); 2) they could be omnipurpose strings coloured >> simply >>>> for decorative use, for making an interesting pattern; 3) they > could >> be >>>> general purpose strings that were coloured to work as position >> markers, >>>> just as with the synthetic harp strings shown here: >>>> Position marking coloured synthetic harp strings: >>>> [9][16][20]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l >>>> as indeed, Dan Larson can do for Lyons; here is an example of >> coloured theorbo strings. >>>> Position marking coloured gut theorbo strings: >>>> [10][17][21]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 >>>> In all these cases above the red strings are not restricted to >> basses, as they are in this one below: >>>> Loaded basses, a modern lute strung in loaded Venices: >>>> [11][18][22]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg >>>> A mixed case: before I had all loaded basses, I did tend to use my >> Gimped >>>> 7c as a position marker, while the colour from 8c down to 11c were >> just >>>> loaded basses : >>>> [12][19][23]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 >>>> % >>>> Does the iconography show similar patterns for historic lutes? >>>> See [13][20][24]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf >>>> There is a possible example of case 2, decorative use on P. 62/102 >> (of text >>>> above) Bilcius (?), 2nd half of the 17th C. detail of the bridge of >> a 12 >>>> course (but I have no modern example of this decorative use). >>>> A' An example of case 3 position marker, could be RubensA-c- Lute >> player: >>>> [14][21][25]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf >>>> Ambiguous situation (case 2 or 3?), see P64/102 A-c-Dyed strings > for >> aesthetical purposesA-c- MP >>>> [15][22][26]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf >>>> It would be difficult to differentiate use (2) and (3) with >> iconography, >>>> and nothing could prevent a luthenist just using any colour he >> happened >>>> to have for any position, with no aesthetic or other intention what >> ever. >>>> Contrast these with the red basses, presumably Pistoys, shown here: >>>> [16][23][27]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b >>>> % >>>> Now all I can conclude from Mace, is that Pistoys dyed deep dark > red >> were >>>> the very best basses of his time. We can not directly conclude from >> this >>>> that they were loaded, but it is highly likely they underwent some >> sort >>>> of special dyeing process, which, if loading with mercury salts was >>>> involved, would be an integral part of their bass string quality; >> but >>>> conceivably it could also be the result of a curing preservation >> process >>>> involving these same oxides, or the same chemicals usedA' just to >>>> distinguish them from any other bass string types (as a sort of > seal >> of >>>> quality), but possibly all three purposes came together. >>>> They were probably rare compared to Lyons (see IInd part) and >> therefore >>>> appear only on some of the best or most wealthy playerA-c-s lutes >> (Charles >>>> Mouton for example). >>>> We can not expect to be able to recognize loading (over other >> purposes) in a >>>> painting (indeed it is hard to distinguish in the photos above); >> even >>>> if, in the hand, they might look and feel very different from the >> simple >>>> red coloured strings. >>>> We only have indirect evidence for loading: the small bridge holes, >> descriptions >>>> of bass strings having been quite loud, and yet the French lutes >> being >>>> quite small (Charles Mouton), all this, including the colour, makes >>>> loading a plausible hypothesis, but that has not been entirely >> proved, >>>> there are just strong indications. >>>> To go further than this, we would need to discover a list of >> chemicals >>>> including mercury salts, etc, in the atelier of a string maker, or >>>> similar chemical deposits. To my knowledge this has not been found, >> as >>>> yet (Barbieri did not find such data in Roman ateliers). >>>> % >>>> This is just my non-specialist musings around the data, Jaroslaw, >> but I have very much enjoyed thinking about all this again. >>>> % >>>> Regards >>>> Anthony >>>> A' >>>> A' A' A' A' DeA' : JarosAe^1aw Lipski > <[17][24][28][email protected]> >>>> Ae'A' : Anthony Hind <[18][25][29][email protected]> >>>> EnvoyAe'AA le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 23h49 >>>> ObjetA' : Re: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the >> movement of the whole lute >>>> >>>> Dear Anthony, >>>> >>>> I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments for >>>> loaded basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or >>>> brown-red bass strings, which are supposed to had been loaded using >>>> oxides of lead, copper, iron etc. We know from pictures that mainly >>>> basses were red or reddish and if they were only dyed (as Mace >>>> described), how can one discern them from loaded strings, and how >> one >>>> can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is no >> difference >>>> between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's descriptionA' > I >> get >>>> an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts: >>>> "There >>>> is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I >>>> conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are >> commonly >>>> dyed, with a deep dark red color" >>>> The same person >>>> writes >>>> on the same page that red colored strings are commonly rotten. For >> me >>>> it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not loaded. >>>> Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I >> wouldn't >>>> like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite >>>> difficult to solve at the moment without any new data. >>>> Meanwhile >>>> (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove >> superiority >>>> of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages >> and >>>> disadvantages. >>>> Nice to hear from you too. >>>> Best wishes >>>> >>>> Jaroslaw >>>> >>>> P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses >> all information objectively. >>>> >>>> >>>> WiadomoAe^1A" napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAe^1AAY 2012, > o >> godz. 22:13: >>>> >>>>> A' A' Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at >> present are >>>>> A' A' covered in the copper loading. >>>>> A' A' I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of >>>> an oxide, >>>>> A' A' although presumably that >>>>> A' A' should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could >> result in >>>>> A' A' various colours. >>>>> A' A' But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can >> also be >>>>> A' A' reddish or yellowish in hue. >>>>> A' A' I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of >> loading. Aren't >>>>> A' A' Georges Stoppani's strings rather red. >>>>> A' A' I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but >> nor are >>>>> A' A' they loaded (although he may have made a few in > experiments). >>>>> A' A' Nice to hear from you again >>>>> A' A' Best wishes >>>>> A' A' Anthony >>>>> A' A' A' >> __________________________________________________________________ >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. > [26][30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=shaunkfng@gmai l.com >> 2. > [27][31]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski @wp.pl >> 3. > [28][32]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3phile@yah oo.com >> 4. > [29][33]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski @wp.pl >> 5. > [30][34]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] uth.edu >> 6. [31][35]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 >> 7. [32][36]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm >> 8. [33][37]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm >> 9. [34][38]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l >> 10. [35][39]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 >> 11. [36][40]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg >> 12. [37][41]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 >> 13. [38][42]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf >> 14. [39][43]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf >> 15. [40][44]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf >> 16. [41][45]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b >> 17. > [42][46]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski @wp.pl >> 18. > [43][47]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=agno3phile@yah oo.com >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [44][48]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [49]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 2. [50]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 3. [51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 4. [52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 5. [53]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 6. [54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 7. [55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 8. [56]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 9. [57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 10. [58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 11. [59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 12. [60]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 13. [61]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > 14. [62]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > 15. [63]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > 16. [64]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > 17. [65]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > 18. [66]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > 19. [67]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > 20. [68]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > 21. [69]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > 22. [70]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > 23. [71]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > 24. [72]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 25. [73]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 26. [74]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 27. [75]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 28. [76]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 29. [77]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 30. [78]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 31. [79]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > 32. [80]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > 33. [81]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > 34. [82]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > 35. [83]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > 36. [84]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > 37. [85]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > 38. [86]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > 39. [87]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > 40. [88]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > 41. [89]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > 42. [90]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 43. [91]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > 44. [92]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 17. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 18. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm 19. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm 20. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l 21. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 22. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg 23. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 24. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 25. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf 26. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 27. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b 28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 31. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 32. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 33. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 34. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 35. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 36. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm 37. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm 38. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l 39. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 40. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg 41. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 42. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 43. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf 44. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 45. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b 46. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 47. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 48. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 49. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 50. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 51. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 52. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 53. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 54. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 55. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 56. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 57. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 58. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 59. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 60. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 61. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 62. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm 63. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm 64. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l 65. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 66. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg 67. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 68. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 69. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf 70. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 71. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b 72. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 73. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 74. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 75. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 76. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 77. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 78. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 79. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 80. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm 81. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm 82. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l 83. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 84. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg 85. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 86. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 87. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf 88. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf 89. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b 90. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 91. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 92. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
