Ah well - It looks like we have started arguing in circles using hypotheses that don't lend themselves to testing. Until we can get hold of a fragment of an old thin bass string that can be subjected to physical and chemical analysis, this argument will go on and on without reaching a conclusion on which we can all agree. Are there absolutely no museum specimens with tiny bits of old gut tied in the bridge? The Wolf 12c in Fuessen seems to have the odd bit of gut stuck in its bridge - Has anybody looked at it? Is it old? How can we tell?
Now here's a related question that I've never seen an answer to - When did overwound strings become the norm for basses of fretted instruments? When can we be sure that just about everyone was using them? Was it in the early 19th Century - Sor, Aguado and so on - or is there firm evidence from before then that they were in general use? Did anybody write it up? I don't know the answer because it's not a period I know much about, but if not, then it's hardly surprising that nobody wrote up the technology of the basses in use in the rather less scientifically-minded 17th century. All the best, Bill From: Shaun Ng <[email protected]> To: Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> Cc: Lute Dmth <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 29 November 2012, 9:42 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? I'm sorry Martyn, the thread is very long. Just mention the book, image, quote, etc. On 29/11/2012, at 8:37 PM, Martyn Hodgson <[1][email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Shaun, > > With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below > > regards > > Martyn > > --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng <[2][email protected]> wrote: > > From: Shaun Ng <[3][email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][email protected]> > Cc: "Lute Dmth" <[5][email protected]> > Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 > > Dear Martyn, > > Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this question anymore? > > Shaun > > On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson <[6][email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Shaun, > > > > You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on > > lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect > > to find?' > > > > The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume > > you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very > > low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by > > loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before > > 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common > > for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. > > > > But we've all been here before.................. > > > > regards > > > > Martyn > > > > From: Shaun Ng <[7][email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to > > rot according to Mace? > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[8][email protected]> > > Cc: "Lute Dmth" <[9][email protected]> > > Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 > > > > Dear Martyn, > > Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I > > do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I > > know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string > > is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used > > a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both > > these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. > > But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For > > loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? > > Shaun Ng > > On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson <[1][10][email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Shaun, > >> > >> When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, > > coloured > >> strings on the basses of lutes.......', what do you mean by > >> 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so > >> precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; > > better > >> than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than > > what? > >> > >> And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the > >> numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings > > were > >> new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 "Goretsky hath an invention > > of > >> lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most > >> admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] "String of guts done about with > >> silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys > > invention") > >> and 1664 John Playford: "An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...": > >> There is a late invention of strings...... it is a small wire > > twisted > >> or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk...". Were they making it up > > as > >> being a new invention? > >> > >> MH > >> > >> --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[2][11][email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> From: Shaun Ng <[3][12][email protected]> > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > >> To: "<[4][13][email protected]>" <[5][14][email protected]> > >> Cc: "<[6][15][email protected]>" <[7][16][email protected]> > >> Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 > >> > >> Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical > >> stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no > >> evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured > > strings > >> on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a > >> technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit > > too > >> late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way > > to > >> get credible information about musical instruments anyway. > >> Shaun Ng > >> 0426240 775 | [1][8][17][email protected] | shaunng.blogspot.com > >> On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <[2][9][18][email protected]> wrote: > >>> Dear Anthony, > >>> > >>> Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said > >> before, the > >>> change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and > >> then > >>> traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer > >> messages. > >>> I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. > >>> You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will > >> try to > >>> address them separately. > >>> > >>> ROTTEN GUT > >>> > >>> Obviously the word "rotten" can have at least 2 meanings, however I > >> am > >>> afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut > >> strings. > >>> Just one example: > >>> > >>> "for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of > >> the > >>> string" > >>> > >>> The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of > >> Music's > >>> Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This > >> can't be > >>> coincidental. > >>> Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that > >> decay > >>> process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, > > namely: > >> 1/ > >>> none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric > >> man > >>> thence unreliable source of historical information. > >>> I would like to challenge both of these notions. > >>> > >>> 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance > >> so if > >>> unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings > > are > >> very > >>> well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times > >> gut was > >>> treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum > >> (as > >>> Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string > >>> manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very > >> easily > >>> during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. > > The > >> porous > >>> structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string > >> makes it > >>> even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate > > conditions > >> that > >>> people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. > >> (maybe > >>> excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not > >> difficult > >>> to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a > >> central > >>> heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In > >> that > >>> light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and > >> even his > >>> amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical. > > We > >> don't > >>> know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in > >> England > >>> it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this: > >> "for the > >>> bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist weather > >>> constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc." I can only try > >> to > >>> imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore > > Mace > >> says > >>> that old lutes are better than new because: "if this > >>> thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such > >> usage; how > >>> much more easily then, must a lute (made of gentle wood, and so very > >> thin) > >>> with such like ill usage decay? Yet we see, that many lutes there > > are > >> of a > >>> great age and I myself have at this present a lute made of ayre, > > that > >> is > >>> above 100 years old, a very strong lute..." To complement this > >> picture one > >>> has to add the level of hygiene and knowledge of elementary > >> microbiological > >>> processes during that time. We don't even know under what conditions > >> strings > >>> were transported and stored before selling by merchants. > >>> I am not surprised Mace writes a lot about rotting strings and even > >> whole > >>> instruments. > >>> > >>> COLOURED STRINGS > >>> > >>> Since I began to play lutes which was many years ago, the passage > >> from > >>> chapter VI p.65-66, was always interpreted one way, suggesting that > >> the red > >>> colour of Pistoys is something different than gut colours described > >> further > >>> under a heading of "coloured strings". I don't know who was the > >> initial > >>> source of this information, but it must have been suggested very > > long > >> time > >>> ago. Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, people repeat ideas > >> without > >>> considering another possibilities. > >>> > >>> Mace writes: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very > > good; > >> But > >>> the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, > >> commonly > >>> rotten, sometimes green very good." > >>> > >>> Lets presume that as you suggest he is talking only about some > > shades > >> of > >>> clear gut strings. Now, I have to ask this question - have you ever > >> seen a > >>> clear gut string which would have a blue, green or red shade ? Hm, I > >> haven't, > >>> and I am afraid this is not the same type of question as - have you > >> ever > >>> seen decaying gut string. Why? Because decay of a gut is possible > > and > >> it's > >>> only a matter of some conditions that could trigger this process, > >> whereas > >>> such a palette of colours understood as a raw gut shading (without > >> any > >>> additional procedure like dyeing) is very unlikely, because we use > >> very > >>> similar if not identical processes to make HT or LT gut strings. I > >> have seen > >>> only gut strings that were either clear, yellowish or whitish. > >> Besides the > >>> heading of this paragraph would be something like "Minikins" if Mace > >> had > >>> thought of clear trebles. On the other hand the process of dyeing > >> strings in > >>> 17-18c. seams to be proved at least for harps. If for harps, why not > >> for > >>> lutes? Mace clearly writes that bass strings were: "commonly dyed, > >> with a > >>> deep dark red colour". If basses were coloured then other strings > >> could be > >>> dyed too, as some iconography confirms like Van der Bilcius's > >> painting. > >>> Strings could have been dyed for several reasons: 1/ some > >> manufactures could > >>> want to stand out from a competition 2/ for ease of playing (finding > >> a > >>> proper string with a finger) especially for beginners (amateurs) 3/ > >> for > >>> aesthetic reasons etc. > >>> I don't know why dyed strings for lutes are so rare nowadays. As far > >> as I > >>> know Dan sells some red gut strings, but no other colours (anyone > >> ells?). > >>> Why aren't they more popular? They would sell easily IMO. Maybe > >> that's an > >>> idea for some string manufactures? > >>> > >>> PISTOYS > >>> > >>> "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, > >> which I > >>> conceive are none other than thick Venice-Catlines, which are > >> commonly dyed, > >>> with a deep dark red colour. They are indeed the very best for the > >> basses, > >>> being smooth and well-twisted strings, but are hard to come by;" MM > >> p.66 > >>> > >>> This passage is often quoted in the context of loaded strings. Mace > >> calls > >>> this another sort of strings Pistoy basses and suggests that they > > are > >> (and > >>> this part draws my attention) "none other than thick > >> Venice-Catlines". Why > >>> "none other than"? Maybe because they were imported and people > > didn't > >> know > >>> how they were produced so they speculated about it. However for Mace > >> they > >>> looked and worked exactly like thick Venice-Catlines. Normaly > >>> Venice-Catlines were manufactured in Bologna, but then transported > > to > >> Venice > >>> (that's why the name Venice). The "Catline" part of the name comes > >> from > >>> naval terminology. Catline on a ship was a very elastic rope used to > >> lash an > >>> anchor to a "cathead" which was a special beam. The rope had to be > >> extremely > >>> flexible. Therefore they were twisted from several ropes in opposite > >>> directions. Very similar construction was later used for production > >> of > >>> middle register lute strings. Not much was written about their use > >> for > >>> basses though, however Mace's statement could correspond well with > >> George > >>> Stoppani's idea of rope strings. Ephraim Segerman suggested once > > that > >> to > >>> make a proper Venice-Catline bass string one would have to use a > >> special > >>> Catline twisting process. Only this could produce an extremely > >> elastic > >>> Catline rope-like string. Normally I use Venice-Catlines for middle > >>> register, but haven't tried Stoppani's or Gamut's Pistoys for basses > >> yet. > >>> However some reports are very promising. > >>> How about a deep dark red colour? Mace claims they were commonly > >> dyed. He > >>> hadn't noticed anything unusual about them like rare thickness, > >>> construction, weight etc. > >>> Then, how about loading? > >>> > >>> LOADED STRINGS > >>> > >>> Nothing can be excluded just by reading MM, but there are no traces > >> that > >>> could point to loading in Mace's text. Personally I don't think the > >> sentence > >>> about Pistoys can be used as an argument in favour of loaded gut > >> theory. > >>> Pistoy (thick Venice-Catline) roped string is good enough to cope > >> with a > >>> problem of dull sounding basses, and loading is not necessary in > > this > >> case. > >>> It could however have been loaded during light saturation process > >> which was > >>> to protect against decay, but this is only a guess as Mace says > >> nothing > >>> about it. The historical evidence on string manufacturing doesn't > >> help > >>> either. > >>> There is a very detailed description of gut string manufacturing in > >> 18c. > >>> France in "Encyclopedie ou dictionnaire raisonne de sciences, des > >> arts et > >>> des metiers" by Denis Diderot and Jean le Rond D'Alembert from > >> 1751-65, > >>> under an entry of Boyaudier or Corde. It describes even > > over-spinning > >> of gut > >>> with a wire. All stages from a raw material to a ready string are > >> covered > >>> including such details as clothes used by workers during production > >> and all > >>> needed accessories. Unfortunately there is no mention of a "loading" > >> stage. > >>> It would be quite difficult to keep away such a messy business as > >> loading > >>> from an inquisitive eye of Diderot. It is possible that after 1750 > >> loaded > >>> strings were already out of use as overwound basses were > > manufactured > >> as he > >>> describes their production in detail. However he also says that the > >> best > >>> strings come from Rome, and later that Italians have their secrets, > >> which > >>> they do not communicate to strangers. On the other hand neither > >> Barbieri's > >>> (as you rightly pointed out) nor Philip Skippon's description of gut > >>> production in Italy confirms this. This could indicate that in Italy > >> it > >>> would be rather a speciality treatment kept in secret but not a > >> common > >>> procedure. > >>> All in all, coming back to my question concerning a connection > >> between red > >>> colour of strings Mace described, loading and decay, I'd say that > > the > >>> strings he described weren't loaded, or if they were it was rather > >>> non-invasive process which didn't change the string properties in a > >> way it > >>> would be visible to an eye (like unusual diameter). At least Mace > >> haven't > >>> noticed it. One could say that he didn't mention it because it was > >> obvious > >>> that all basses would be loaded. This is exactly the point were my > >> question > >>> originated from. If bridge holes on his lute were so tiny that he > >> could use > >>> only heavily loaded bass strings, then how was it possible that he > >> used > >>> Lyons which were ordinary thick gut strings often rotten (according > >> to Mace > >>> , not loaded) interchangeably with Pistoys (which are suggested to > > be > >>> loaded) ? Moreover Diderot's description coincide with Lady Susi > >> Jeans's in > >>> "Manufacture of strings in England". Again, no sign of loading. I am > >> not > >>> trying to say that the loaded gut theory can't be true. On the > >> contrary, > >>> modern loaded gut strings are good alternative for basses in case of > >>> stringing some 17c. lutes, no matter how they will prove to be > >> historical in > >>> future. We discuss only Mace's remarks, and these are only some of > > my > >>> impressions after reading chapter VI of MM once more. > >>> > >>> ECCENTRIC MACE > >>> > >>> This a very difficult subject. There is a little bit of psychology > >> and > >>> philosophy in it ,so probably someone that is a professional could > >> say much > >>> more (and better) than me, but I have a feeling that it's very > >> relative. > >>> Reading a book such as Music's Monument is like time-traveling. You > >> go back > >>> in time, and the same time you enter absolutely unknown reality. You > >> try to > >>> project your experiences into the past, but unfortunately it doesn't > >> work. > >>> Well, you may think it does, but it doesn't. > >>> Eccentricity is usually measured by a comparison to the general > >> public's > >>> standards. If you compared Mace to our modern society he would be > >> terribly > >>> eccentric. We are used to reading of old texts, and in spite they > >> feel very > >>> old-fashioned there is some level of universalism that one can > > relate > >> to. In > >>> most books from that time there are things that a modern reader > > would > >> most > >>> probably skip. When Burwell writes on many pages about Angels, the > >> most > >>> usual reaction would be that she is a little bit potty in this > >> matter, but > >>> in general it's easier to accept some unusual believes as most > > people > >> know > >>> something about basic concepts of spiritual life in old ages. > > However > >> Music's > >>> Monument is more unique as it is more personal. It shows Mace's most > >>> personal views and ideas. One of the reasons for that is that > > Music's > >>> Monument wasn't written just for one rich sponsor (which would be a > >> normal > >>> way to go) like a king/queen, prince/princesse etc. He wrote it > >> encouraged > >>> by some of his pupils, and printed using his own means and those > >> collected > >>> from subscribers, however he says: "It cannot well be afforded at > >> that price > >>> (12s.), to return me any tollerable, or reasonable requital." > >>> On the subscription list there are around 300 names among which > > there > >> are > >>> only 2 barons, 4 baronets, 2 bishops, 4 knights - the rest being > >> scholars, > >>> clergyman and ordinary gentleman. Not writing for a court he took a > >>> different attitude: "But if I had only to have spoke to those of > >> experience > >>> and to show the elegancy of my tongue, I should have contriv'd my > >> discourse > >>> into another shape; But in that I intend it chiefly for learners, I > >> conceive > >>> I have not spoke much too much." If he was to write for a king he > >> would be > >>> afraid of saying much too much, and eccentricity of his book would > > be > >>> comparable to some French tutors written for a court. > >>> > >>> Therefore, when reading Music's Monument one has to remember that if > >> we were > >>> allowed to spend just an hour in the reality people in 17c. lived > > in, > >> we > >>> would be extremely surprised by some standards they were used to. It > >> is in > >>> fact like traveling to another planet, and we can not do justice to > >> this > >>> kind of sources without making some necessary adjustments. > >>> > >>> It was a pleasure to talk to you again Anthony. > >>> > >>> Best regards > >>> > >>> Jaroslaw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" > >> <[3][10][19][email protected]> > >>> To: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[4][11][20][email protected]> > >>> Cc: <[5][12][21][email protected]> > >>> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:19 PM > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > >>> > >>> > >>>> Dear Jaroslaw > >>>> A' A' A' A' As promised, back now in Paris, I will try to > >>>> respond, with a few new thoughts on Mace's string remarks, along > >> with > >>>> the old, as when we talked last at > >>>> [6][13][22]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > >>>> MaceA-c-s remarks can be found at > >>>> [7][14][23]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > >>>> But the CNRS facsimile is such a bargain, every lutenist should > >> surely have > >>>> one; unless, like a lute maker I know, you are lucky enough to be > >> given > >>>> an original edition for your birthday ... > >>>> % > >>>> First, I must say that my previous message, about loaded strings > >> being fairly > >>>> immune to humidity, only concerned modern loaded strings, which are > >>>> coated with copper in a sort of glue. If historic "deep dark red" > >>>> Pistoys had been loaded through saturation, with say a solution of > >> red > >>>> mercury oxide (akin to a dyeing procin to a dyeing process), I > >> donA-c-t know if they would > >>>> have been quite so immune to water absorption. But probably oxide > >>>> loading (rather like salting hams) might have prevented them > >> rotting, or > >>>> at leastA' slowed the process down (are there any chemists among > > you > >> who > >>>> could say if this is likely?). > >>>> % > >>>> I will reply to your messages, but breaking up my responses to > >> lighten the load: > >>>> I) Why MaceA-c-s Pistoy Basses dyed Deep dark red are quite > >> different from > >>>> his omnipurpose plain red coloured strings, and are not therefore > >>>> particularly prone to rotting according to Mace. > >>>> II) How reliable, and not just excentric, is Mace, a few arguments > >> in his favour? > >>>> A) Meanes used for octaves? B) Why were the Lyons Burwell thought > > so > >> good, > >>>> now so bad, according to Mace? (some data on out sourcing from > >>>> Barbieri) > >>>> % > >>>> I) Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > >>>> In relation to the rotting tendency of red strings, you ask me, > >>>> A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' "how will you explain a > >> quote from Mace p.66: > >>>>> A' A' "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very > >> good; yet but > >>>>> A' A' seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or > > of > >> the decay > >>>>> A' A' of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, > >> very good; > >>>>> A' A' but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly > >> rotten." > >>>>> A' A' As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of > >> loaded > >>>>> A' A' string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly > >> rotten?" Jaroslaw > >>>> Perhaps the "underlying" question, here (please tell me if I am > >> wrong), is > >>>> whether, when Mace describes Red coloured strings as "commonly > >> rotten" > >>>> (your quote above), he is including in this description, all red > >> strings > >>>> without exception (dyed or coloured), even those from Pistoy, which > >> are > >>>> dyedA' "deep dark red". In other words, is he saying Pistoys are > >>>> commonly rotten? and if so, would this rule them out as being > > loaded > >>>> strings? > >>>> % > >>>> Here, is my reasoning: Mace had a very strong preoccupation with > >> rotten gut, > >>>> clearly from personal experience (althoughxperience (although I > > have > >> never encountered this > >>>> problem), and he therefore gives detailed advice on how to store > >>>> strings to make sure they don't "take any wet, or moist air." > >> Further, > >>>> whenever he mentions a string liable to rot, he immediately states > >> this > >>>> within the next few sentences, as in all these cases : > >>>> "There is a small sort of lyons, which many use for the Octaves. > > But > >> I care > >>>> not for them, they being constantly rotten, and good for little, > > but > >> to > >>>> make frets of." > >>>> (...) > >>>> "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; > >> yet, but > >>>> seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the > >> decay > >>>> of the string." > >>>> (...) > >>>> "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; But the > >> best (to my > >>>> observation) was always the clear Blue; the Red, commonly rotten, > >>>> sometimes green, very good." > >>>> % > >>>> It would therefore be very surprising if he had not done the same > >> for > >>>> Pistoy Basses, if he had really thought they were often rotten, > >>>> especially as they were rare. Why allow a student to waste time > >>>> searching them out, if they are both rare, and often rottenA' ? But > >> he > >>>> only speaks of their excellent quality (next to the heading, "And > >> what > >>>> sort of strings are best?"), and clearly contrasts them with the > >>>> inferior Lyons, "They are indeed the very best, for the basses, > >> being > >>>> smooth and well twisted strings, but are hard to come by; however > >> out of > >>>> a good parcel of Lyons strings, you may (with care) pick those > > which > >>>> serve very well." Wouldn't he have immediately (within the next few > >>>> sentences) warned the reader about this danger, if there had been > >> any; > >>>> but follows a number of paragraphs, in which he explains "How to > >> chuse > >>>> your strings", giving rules for choosingA' Minikins, Venice > > Catlins, > >> and > >>>> Lyons, but not for Pistoys, presumably either because they are too > >> rare, > >>>> or because they are always good, in which case just the "deep dark > >>>> red", is sign enough to vouch for this stringA-c-s quality. During > >> these > >>>> explanations, he again insists that Lyons basses are inferior ey > > are > >> much more inferior strings than the other", but he does > >>>> not extend this criticism to Pistoys, which seem therefore to be > >>>> unparalleled in quality (indeed "the other" may actually be > >> referring > >>>> back to "Pistoys", the other type of bass string). > >>>> % > >>>> Finally, under the completely new heading "Coloured strings", he > >> talks of > >>>> yellowish, clear blue, red, and green strings, without giving any > >>>> indication of their use (while for all strings with a name which at > >>>> least originally implied a provenance, Minikin, Venices, Lyons, and > >>>> Pistoys, he took great care to discuss their uses. In this he does > >>>> exactly the same as Dowland, who mentions the same colours., but > >> gives > >>>> no indication of their use (while he does for other string types)A' > >> : > >>>> "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the > >> lightest > >>>> colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the > >>>> Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) > >>>> [8][15][24]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > >>>> % > >>>> I suppose there are three possible interpretations for this,A' : 1) > >> the > >>>> colours discussed could be a natural coloration that can effect ANY > >>>> string type, except possibly Pistoys which are dyed dark red > > already > >>>> (indeed there are naturally coloured yellow, and brown strings, I > >> have > >>>> yellow and brown Venices, there are also red and black, but perhaps > >> not > >>>> green and blueA' ?); 2) they could be omnipurpose strings coloured > >> simply > >>>> for decorative use, for making an interesting pattern; 3) they > > could > >> be > >>>> general purpose strings that were coloured to work as position > >> markers, > >>>> just as with the synthetic harp strings shown here: > >>>> Position marking coloured synthetic harp strings: > >>>> [9][16][25]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > >>>> as indeed, Dan Larson can do for Lyons; here is an example of > >> coloured theorbo strings. > >>>> Position marking coloured gut theorbo strings: > >>>> [10][17][26]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > >>>> In all these cases above the red strings are not restricted to > >> basses, as they are in this one below: > >>>> Loaded basses, a modern lute strung in loaded Venices: > >>>> [11][18][27]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > >>>> A mixed case: before I had all loaded basses, I did tend to use my > >> Gimped > >>>> 7c as a position marker, while the colour from 8c down to 11c were > >> just > >>>> loaded basses : > >>>> [12][19][28]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > >>>> % > >>>> Does the iconography show similar patterns for historic lutes? > >>>> See [13][20][29]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >>>> There is a possible example of case 2, decorative use on P. 62/102 > >> (of text > >>>> above) Bilcius (?), 2nd half of the 17th C. detail of the bridge of > >> a 12 > >>>> course (but I have no modern example of this decorative use). > >>>> A' An example of case 3 position marker, could be RubensA-c- Lute > >> player: > >>>> [14][21][30]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > >>>> Ambiguous situation (case 2 or 3?), see P64/102 A-c-Dyed strings > > for > >> aesthetical purposesA-c- MP > >>>> [15][22][31]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >>>> It would be difficult to differentiate use (2) and (3) with > >> iconography, > >>>> and nothing could prevent a luthenist just using any colour he > >> happened > >>>> to have for any position, with no aesthetic or other intention what > >> ever. > >>>> Contrast these with the red basses, presumably Pistoys, shown here: > >>>> [16][23][32]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > >>>> % > >>>> Now all I can conclude from Mace, is that Pistoys dyed deep dark > > red > >> were > >>>> the very best basses of his time. We can not directly conclude from > >> this > >>>> that they were loaded, but it is highly likely they underwent some > >> sort > >>>> of special dyeing process, which, if loading with mercury salts was > >>>> involved, would be an integral part of their bass string quality; > >> but > >>>> conceivably it could also be the result of a curing preservation > >> process > >>>> involving these same oxides, or the same chemicals usedA' just to > >>>> distinguish them from any other bass string types (as a sort of > > seal > >> of > >>>> quality), but possibly all three purposes came together. > >>>> They were probably rare compared to Lyons (see IInd part) and > >> therefore > >>>> appear only on some of the best or most wealthy playerA-c-s lutes > >> (Charles > >>>> Mouton for example). > >>>> We can not expect to be able to recognize loading (over other > >> purposes) in a > >>>> painting (indeed it is hard to distinguish in the photos above); > >> even > >>>> if, in the hand, they might look and feel very different from the > >> simple > >>>> red coloured strings. > >>>> We only have indirect evidence for loading: the small bridge holes, > >> descriptions > >>>> of bass strings having been quite loud, and yet the French lutes > >> being > >>>> quite small (Charles Mouton), all this, including the colour, makes > >>>> loading a plausible hypothesis, but that has not been entirely > >> proved, > >>>> there are just strong indications. > >>>> To go further than this, we would need to discover a list of > >> chemicals > >>>> including mercury salts, etc, in the atelier of a string maker, or > >>>> similar chemical deposits. To my knowledge this has not been found, > >> as > >>>> yet (Barbieri did not find such data in Roman ateliers). > >>>> % > >>>> This is just my non-specialist musings around the data, Jaroslaw, > >> but I have very much enjoyed thinking about all this again. > >>>> % > >>>> Regards > >>>> Anthony > >>>> A' > >>>> A' A' A' A' DeA' : JarosAe^1aw Lipski > > <[17][24][33][email protected]> > >>>> Ae'A' : Anthony Hind <[18][25][34][email protected]> > >>>> EnvoyAe'AA le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 23h49 > >>>> ObjetA' : Re: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the > >> movement of the whole lute > >>>> > >>>> Dear Anthony, > >>>> > >>>> I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments for > >>>> loaded basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or > >>>> brown-red bass strings, which are supposed to had been loaded using > >>>> oxides of lead, copper, iron etc. We know from pictures that mainly > >>>> basses were red or reddish and if they were only dyed (as Mace > >>>> described), how can one discern them from loaded strings, and how > >> one > >>>> can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is no > >> difference > >>>> between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's descriptionA' > > I > >> get > >>>> an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts: > >>>> "There > >>>> is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I > >>>> conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are > >> commonly > >>>> dyed, with a deep dark red color" > >>>> The same person > >>>> writes > >>>> on the same page that red colored strings are commonly rotten. For > >> me > >>>> it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not loaded. > >>>> Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I > >> wouldn't > >>>> like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite > >>>> difficult to solve at the moment without any new data. > >>>> Meanwhile > >>>> (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove > >> superiority > >>>> of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages > >> and > >>>> disadvantages. > >>>> Nice to hear from you too. > >>>> Best wishes > >>>> > >>>> Jaroslaw > >>>> > >>>> P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses > >> all information objectively. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> WiadomoAe^1A" napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAe^1AAY 2012, > > o > >> godz. 22:13: > >>>> > >>>>> A' A' Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at > >> present are > >>>>> A' A' covered in the copper loading. > >>>>> A' A' I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of > >>>> an oxide, > >>>>> A' A' although presumably that > >>>>> A' A' should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could > >> result in > >>>>> A' A' various colours. > >>>>> A' A' But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can > >> also be > >>>>> A' A' reddish or yellowish in hue. > >>>>> A' A' I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of > >> loading. Aren't > >>>>> A' A' Georges Stoppani's strings rather red. > >>>>> A' A' I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but > >> nor are > >>>>> A' A' they loaded (although he may have made a few in > > experiments). > >>>>> A' A' Nice to hear from you again > >>>>> A' A' Best wishes > >>>>> A' A' Anthony > >>>>> A' A' A' > >> __________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> -- > >> > >> References > >> > >> 1. > > [26][35]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] m > >> 2. > > [27][36]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski@wp. pl > >> 3. > > [28][37]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] om > >> 4. > > [29][38]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski@wp. pl > >> 5. > > [30][39]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]. edu > >> 6. [31][40]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > >> 7. [32][41]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > >> 8. [33][42]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > >> 9. [34][43]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > >> 10. [35][44]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > >> 11. [36][45]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > >> 12. [37][46]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > >> 13. [38][47]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >> 14. [39][48]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > >> 15. [40][49]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >> 16. [41][50]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > >> 17. > > [42][51]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlipski@wp. pl > >> 18. > > [43][52]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] om > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [44][53]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. [54]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > > 2. [55]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 3. [56]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 4. [57]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 5. [58]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 6. [59]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 7. [60]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 8. [61]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 9. [62]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 10. [63]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 11. [64]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 12. [65]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 13. [66]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > > 14. [67]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > > 15. [68]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > > 16. [69]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > > 17. [70]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > > 18. [71]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > > 19. [72]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > > 20. [73]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 21. [74]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > > 22. [75]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 23. [76]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > > 24. [77]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 25. [78]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 26. [79]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 27. [80]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 28. [81]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 29. [82]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 30. [83]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 31. [84]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > > 32. [85]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > > 33. [86]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > > 34. [87]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > > 35. [88]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > > 36. [89]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > > 37. [90]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > > 38. [91]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 39. [92]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > > 40. 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