Well, wouldn't this mean that every time we see a painting of an instrument with strings, we would have to consider one more stringing option, instead of just gut or wound? It says something quite important, that metal strings on instruments existed. Now, in the light of this, interpretation of later sources concerning wound strings changes. Hundreds of years of different metals, and now we hear about silver on gut from a private correspondence (Goretzky) and an advertisement (Playford), which may have not appeared in Playford's book had an entry not been made; it doesn't appear in later editions of Playford reprinted into the 18th century. It doesn't appear in Mace either, I think. Sounds to me like indifference to new technology, but is it really completely new considering metals have been around for such a long time?
Shaun Ng On 30/11/2012, at 5:45, Dan Winheld <dwinh...@lmi.net> wrote: > "Kapsberger used a wire strung theorbo..." > > Apples and oranges. Monofilament wire string technology, used in musical > instruments, goes way back- predating the Renaissance, maybe 13th century > (best I can remember off the top of my head). Nothing to do with the idea of > thin wire overwound on a gut or silk core. Merely citing the fact of non-gut > string use does nothing to extend our knowledge of the existence of wire > wounds back to to anytime earlier than the already known sources. > > "On 29/11/2012 15:32, William Samson wrote: > Interesting point Martin. Both you and Martyn have suggested that if > much lower tensions were used in the basses than we use today, that > could be the answer without conjectural winding or loading. I think > the proof of the pudding would be in the trying out of this > possibility. Has anybody strung a 9c in this way? Does it play in > tune - particularly when notes are stopped? > > If I'm interpreting correctly what I see on Arto's String Calculator, > with aA5 and a string stop of 63cm (which would just about allow a gut > chanterelle to be tuned to g) the tension of the 9th course tuned to > C with a 1.4mm dia gut string would be about 1.2kg. It's certainly low > by present day standards, but is it unfeasibly low?" > > As to how light a tension can be used by the performer, the lightest I have > heard about are Toyohiko Satoh's recommendations from 2009. As a player of > impeccable credentials & repute in this field, working & recording with > actual historic instruments, and in close contact with Mimmo Peruffo, the > fruit- so far- of his research is of special value & should carry a bit of > weight.. In his tables of string tensions ranging from 6 course lute up to > archlute the lightest working tensions he comes up with are in the 2.1 kg. > area- the very lightest being the 1.95 high octave strings on courses 5 & 6 > for his six course lute. My own stringing, by necessity needing to work with > certainly less sensitive instruments than Satoh's, (and played by less > sensitive performer!), have to be a touch heavier- but not much. > Paradoxically, I do get away with much lighter tension on my archlute > diapasons. "Your mileage may vary". > > Dan > > On 11/28/2012 11:43 AM, Shaun Ng wrote: >> Dear Martyn, >> >> Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I do >> find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I know this >> sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string is the new >> invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used a wire strung >> theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both these sources, so >> that's at least evidence of non gut string use. >> >> But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For loaded >> strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? >> >> Shaun Ng >> >> On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> Dear Shaun, >>> >>> When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured >>> strings on the basses of lutes.......', what do you mean by >>> 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so >>> precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; better >>> than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than what? >>> >>> And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the >>> numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings were >>> new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 "Goretsky hath an invention of >>> lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most >>> admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] "String of guts done about with >>> silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys invention") >>> and 1664 John Playford: "An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...": >>> There is a late invention of strings...... it is a small wire twisted >>> or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk...". Were they making it up as >>> being a new invention? >>> >>> MH >>> >>> --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng<shaunk...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> From: Shaun Ng<shaunk...@gmail.com> >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? >>> To: "<jaroslawlip...@wp.pl>"<jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> >>> Cc: "<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>"<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >>> Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 >>> >>> Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical >>> stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no >>> evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured strings >>> on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a >>> technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit too >>> late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way to >>> get credible information about musical instruments anyway. >>> Shaun Ng >>> 0426240 775 | [1]shaunk...@gmail.com | shaunng.blogspot.com >>> On 28/11/2012, at 5:35,<[2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote: > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
