I'm sorry Martyn, the thread is very long. Just mention the book, image, quote, etc.
On 29/11/2012, at 8:37 PM, Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> wrote: > > Dear Shaun, > > With respect, I think I've already answered this - see below > > regards > > Martyn > > --- On Thu, 29/11/12, Shaun Ng <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Shaun Ng <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot > according to Mace? > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > Cc: "Lute Dmth" <[email protected]> > Date: Thursday, 29 November, 2012, 9:34 > > Dear Martyn, > > Yes, I am aware of these things. The evidence for loading on strings is? Or > has the lute world already made a collective decision not to ask this > question anymore? > > Shaun > > On 29/11/2012, at 7:30 PM, Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Shaun, > > > > You ask: 'But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on > > lutes? For loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect > > to find?' > > > > The explanation for thin bass strings on at least some lutes (I presume > > you're referring to measurements of bidge hole diametrs) is either very > > low (elastic band) tensions or denser strings. The latter achieved by > > loading or wire winding - the weight of evidence suggesting that before > > 1660 (and, in my view, after too - did wound strings ever become common > > for the Dm lute?) the denser string was achieved by loading. > > > > But we've all been here before.................. > > > > regards > > > > Martyn > > > > From: Shaun Ng <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Lute bass strings - was Re: Are Pistoys prone to > > rot according to Mace? > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > > Cc: "Lute Dmth" <[email protected]> > > Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 19:43 > > > > Dear Martyn, > > Thanks for these sources. I don't think they were making it up, but I > > do find the Playford source questionable, being an advertisement. I > > know this sounds nitpicky, but all it says is 'silver wire' on string > > is the new invention. It doesn't say what came before. Kapsberger used > > a wire strung theorbo, if I remember rightly, and it predates both > > these sources, so that's at least evidence of non gut string use. > > But then what is the explanation for thin bass strings on lutes? For > > loaded strings, what is the evidence that one would expect to find? > > Shaun Ng > > On 29/11/2012, at 2:02, Martyn Hodgson <[1][email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Shaun, > >> > >> When you write 'The better explanation for seemingly thin, > > coloured > >> strings on the basses of lutes.......', what do you mean by > >> 'better''?: - better in relation to the historical evidence (if so > >> precisely what)?; better for modern ears?; better for the cost?; > > better > >> than currently available coloured /loaded strings?; better than > > what? > >> > >> And why would we wish to ignore clear iconographic evidence (eg the > >> numerous paintings) and the historical record (eg wound strings > > were > >> new in the 1660s: Hartlib papers 1659 "Goretsky hath an invention > > of > >> lute strings covered with silver wyer, or strings which make a most > >> admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] "String of guts done about with > >> silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretskys > > invention") > >> and 1664 John Playford: "An Introduction to the Skill of Musik...": > >> There is a late invention of strings...... it is a small wire > > twisted > >> or gimp'd upon a gut string or silk...". Were they making it up > > as > >> being a new invention? > >> > >> MH > >> > >> --- On Wed, 28/11/12, Shaun Ng <[2][email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> From: Shaun Ng <[3][email protected]> > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > >> To: "<[4][email protected]>" <[5][email protected]> > >> Cc: "<[6][email protected]>" <[7][email protected]> > >> Date: Wednesday, 28 November, 2012, 0:45 > >> > >> Just a short comment: I recently did some research on historical > >> stringing and in regards to pistoy loaded strings, there is no > >> evidence. The better explanation for seemingly thin, coloured > > strings > >> on the basses of lutes is wound strings. At least we know such a > >> technology existed, even though their mention mostly comes a bit > > too > >> late when we compare paintings of the time, which is not a good way > > to > >> get credible information about musical instruments anyway. > >> Shaun Ng > >> 0426240 775 | [1][8][email protected] | shaunng.blogspot.com > >> On 28/11/2012, at 5:35, <[2][9][email protected]> wrote: > >>> Dear Anthony, > >>> > >>> Once more my apologies for such a hiatus in writing. As I said > >> before, the > >>> change of internet provider caused a lot of connection problems, and > >> then > >>> traveling (a concert tour) didn't give me a chance to write longer > >> messages. > >>> I'll try to catch up now, so please excuse me if I write too long. > >>> You touched a couple of related topics in your last email, so I will > >> try to > >>> address them separately. > >>> > >>> ROTTEN GUT > >>> > >>> Obviously the word "rotten" can have at least 2 meanings, however I > >> am > >>> afraid in this case Mace very clearly writes about decay of gut > >> strings. > >>> Just one example: > >>> > >>> "for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the DECAY of > >> the > >>> string" > >>> > >>> The word "decay" reappears several times in the technical part of > >> Music's > >>> Monument, always in conjunction with the word "rottenness". This > >> can't be > >>> coincidental. > >>> Now, one can consider why it is so difficult for us to accept that > >> decay > >>> process of a gut string could be real. I can see two reasons, > > namely: > >> 1/ > >>> none of us saw a rotting gut 2/ Mace is viewed as a very eccentric > >> man > >>> thence unreliable source of historical information. > >>> I would like to challenge both of these notions. > >>> > >>> 1/ Is this possible for a gut to decay? Gut is an organic substance > >> so if > >>> unprotected it would start to decay very fast. Modern gut strings > > are > >> very > >>> well chemically protected against such a possibility. In Mace times > >> gut was > >>> treated with Griepoli i.e. tartar and a small quantity of Roch Allum > >> (as > >>> Philip Skippon an English traveller who visited an Italian string > >>> manufacture testifies in 1663). In general gut absorbs humidity very > >> easily > >>> during which process it swells putting on some weight and volume. > > The > >> porous > >>> structure of gut and the way strands are assembled into a string > >> makes it > >>> even more susceptible to decay. Now, if we try to recreate > > conditions > >> that > >>> people were used to live in an average English household in 17c. > >> (maybe > >>> excluding aristocracy), and Mace was not a wealthy man, it is not > >> difficult > >>> to imagine that walls of such a building that had never seen a > >> central > >>> heating system would be prone to keep constant humidity inside. In > >> that > >>> light Mace's advice to keep a lute in the room with fireplace and > >> even his > >>> amusing remark to wrap it in blankets seems to be quite practical. > > We > >> don't > >>> know what was the climate in 17c., but we can easily assume that in > >> England > >>> it would be definitely humid. Mace's remarks seem to confirm this: > >> "for the > >>> bed will dry up all the moisture and clamminess, which moist weather > >>> constantly ocassions to any thing made of wood etc." I can only try > >> to > >>> imagine that clammy furniture and other wooden things. Therefore > > Mace > >> says > >>> that old lutes are better than new because: "if this > >>> thick-strong-lusty-sturdy-oak will (in 100 years) decay, by such > >> usage; how > >>> much more easily then, must a lute (made of gentle wood, and so very > >> thin) > >>> with such like ill usage decay? Yet we see, that many lutes there > > are > >> of a > >>> great age and I myself have at this present a lute made of ayre, > > that > >> is > >>> above 100 years old, a very strong lute..." To complement this > >> picture one > >>> has to add the level of hygiene and knowledge of elementary > >> microbiological > >>> processes during that time. We don't even know under what conditions > >> strings > >>> were transported and stored before selling by merchants. > >>> I am not surprised Mace writes a lot about rotting strings and even > >> whole > >>> instruments. > >>> > >>> COLOURED STRINGS > >>> > >>> Since I began to play lutes which was many years ago, the passage > >> from > >>> chapter VI p.65-66, was always interpreted one way, suggesting that > >> the red > >>> colour of Pistoys is something different than gut colours described > >> further > >>> under a heading of "coloured strings". I don't know who was the > >> initial > >>> source of this information, but it must have been suggested very > > long > >> time > >>> ago. Unfortunately, as usual in such cases, people repeat ideas > >> without > >>> considering another possibilities. > >>> > >>> Mace writes: "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very > > good; > >> But > >>> the best (to my observation) was always the clear blue; the red, > >> commonly > >>> rotten, sometimes green very good." > >>> > >>> Lets presume that as you suggest he is talking only about some > > shades > >> of > >>> clear gut strings. Now, I have to ask this question - have you ever > >> seen a > >>> clear gut string which would have a blue, green or red shade ? Hm, I > >> haven't, > >>> and I am afraid this is not the same type of question as - have you > >> ever > >>> seen decaying gut string. Why? Because decay of a gut is possible > > and > >> it's > >>> only a matter of some conditions that could trigger this process, > >> whereas > >>> such a palette of colours understood as a raw gut shading (without > >> any > >>> additional procedure like dyeing) is very unlikely, because we use > >> very > >>> similar if not identical processes to make HT or LT gut strings. I > >> have seen > >>> only gut strings that were either clear, yellowish or whitish. > >> Besides the > >>> heading of this paragraph would be something like "Minikins" if Mace > >> had > >>> thought of clear trebles. On the other hand the process of dyeing > >> strings in > >>> 17-18c. seams to be proved at least for harps. If for harps, why not > >> for > >>> lutes? Mace clearly writes that bass strings were: "commonly dyed, > >> with a > >>> deep dark red colour". If basses were coloured then other strings > >> could be > >>> dyed too, as some iconography confirms like Van der Bilcius's > >> painting. > >>> Strings could have been dyed for several reasons: 1/ some > >> manufactures could > >>> want to stand out from a competition 2/ for ease of playing (finding > >> a > >>> proper string with a finger) especially for beginners (amateurs) 3/ > >> for > >>> aesthetic reasons etc. > >>> I don't know why dyed strings for lutes are so rare nowadays. As far > >> as I > >>> know Dan sells some red gut strings, but no other colours (anyone > >> ells?). > >>> Why aren't they more popular? They would sell easily IMO. Maybe > >> that's an > >>> idea for some string manufactures? > >>> > >>> PISTOYS > >>> > >>> "There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, > >> which I > >>> conceive are none other than thick Venice-Catlines, which are > >> commonly dyed, > >>> with a deep dark red colour. They are indeed the very best for the > >> basses, > >>> being smooth and well-twisted strings, but are hard to come by;" MM > >> p.66 > >>> > >>> This passage is often quoted in the context of loaded strings. Mace > >> calls > >>> this another sort of strings Pistoy basses and suggests that they > > are > >> (and > >>> this part draws my attention) "none other than thick > >> Venice-Catlines". Why > >>> "none other than"? Maybe because they were imported and people > > didn't > >> know > >>> how they were produced so they speculated about it. However for Mace > >> they > >>> looked and worked exactly like thick Venice-Catlines. Normaly > >>> Venice-Catlines were manufactured in Bologna, but then transported > > to > >> Venice > >>> (that's why the name Venice). The "Catline" part of the name comes > >> from > >>> naval terminology. Catline on a ship was a very elastic rope used to > >> lash an > >>> anchor to a "cathead" which was a special beam. The rope had to be > >> extremely > >>> flexible. Therefore they were twisted from several ropes in opposite > >>> directions. Very similar construction was later used for production > >> of > >>> middle register lute strings. Not much was written about their use > >> for > >>> basses though, however Mace's statement could correspond well with > >> George > >>> Stoppani's idea of rope strings. Ephraim Segerman suggested once > > that > >> to > >>> make a proper Venice-Catline bass string one would have to use a > >> special > >>> Catline twisting process. Only this could produce an extremely > >> elastic > >>> Catline rope-like string. Normally I use Venice-Catlines for middle > >>> register, but haven't tried Stoppani's or Gamut's Pistoys for basses > >> yet. > >>> However some reports are very promising. > >>> How about a deep dark red colour? Mace claims they were commonly > >> dyed. He > >>> hadn't noticed anything unusual about them like rare thickness, > >>> construction, weight etc. > >>> Then, how about loading? > >>> > >>> LOADED STRINGS > >>> > >>> Nothing can be excluded just by reading MM, but there are no traces > >> that > >>> could point to loading in Mace's text. Personally I don't think the > >> sentence > >>> about Pistoys can be used as an argument in favour of loaded gut > >> theory. > >>> Pistoy (thick Venice-Catline) roped string is good enough to cope > >> with a > >>> problem of dull sounding basses, and loading is not necessary in > > this > >> case. > >>> It could however have been loaded during light saturation process > >> which was > >>> to protect against decay, but this is only a guess as Mace says > >> nothing > >>> about it. The historical evidence on string manufacturing doesn't > >> help > >>> either. > >>> There is a very detailed description of gut string manufacturing in > >> 18c. > >>> France in "Encyclopedie ou dictionnaire raisonne de sciences, des > >> arts et > >>> des metiers" by Denis Diderot and Jean le Rond D'Alembert from > >> 1751-65, > >>> under an entry of Boyaudier or Corde. It describes even > > over-spinning > >> of gut > >>> with a wire. All stages from a raw material to a ready string are > >> covered > >>> including such details as clothes used by workers during production > >> and all > >>> needed accessories. Unfortunately there is no mention of a "loading" > >> stage. > >>> It would be quite difficult to keep away such a messy business as > >> loading > >>> from an inquisitive eye of Diderot. It is possible that after 1750 > >> loaded > >>> strings were already out of use as overwound basses were > > manufactured > >> as he > >>> describes their production in detail. However he also says that the > >> best > >>> strings come from Rome, and later that Italians have their secrets, > >> which > >>> they do not communicate to strangers. On the other hand neither > >> Barbieri's > >>> (as you rightly pointed out) nor Philip Skippon's description of gut > >>> production in Italy confirms this. This could indicate that in Italy > >> it > >>> would be rather a speciality treatment kept in secret but not a > >> common > >>> procedure. > >>> All in all, coming back to my question concerning a connection > >> between red > >>> colour of strings Mace described, loading and decay, I'd say that > > the > >>> strings he described weren't loaded, or if they were it was rather > >>> non-invasive process which didn't change the string properties in a > >> way it > >>> would be visible to an eye (like unusual diameter). At least Mace > >> haven't > >>> noticed it. One could say that he didn't mention it because it was > >> obvious > >>> that all basses would be loaded. This is exactly the point were my > >> question > >>> originated from. If bridge holes on his lute were so tiny that he > >> could use > >>> only heavily loaded bass strings, then how was it possible that he > >> used > >>> Lyons which were ordinary thick gut strings often rotten (according > >> to Mace > >>> , not loaded) interchangeably with Pistoys (which are suggested to > > be > >>> loaded) ? Moreover Diderot's description coincide with Lady Susi > >> Jeans's in > >>> "Manufacture of strings in England". Again, no sign of loading. I am > >> not > >>> trying to say that the loaded gut theory can't be true. On the > >> contrary, > >>> modern loaded gut strings are good alternative for basses in case of > >>> stringing some 17c. lutes, no matter how they will prove to be > >> historical in > >>> future. We discuss only Mace's remarks, and these are only some of > > my > >>> impressions after reading chapter VI of MM once more. > >>> > >>> ECCENTRIC MACE > >>> > >>> This a very difficult subject. There is a little bit of psychology > >> and > >>> philosophy in it ,so probably someone that is a professional could > >> say much > >>> more (and better) than me, but I have a feeling that it's very > >> relative. > >>> Reading a book such as Music's Monument is like time-traveling. You > >> go back > >>> in time, and the same time you enter absolutely unknown reality. You > >> try to > >>> project your experiences into the past, but unfortunately it doesn't > >> work. > >>> Well, you may think it does, but it doesn't. > >>> Eccentricity is usually measured by a comparison to the general > >> public's > >>> standards. If you compared Mace to our modern society he would be > >> terribly > >>> eccentric. We are used to reading of old texts, and in spite they > >> feel very > >>> old-fashioned there is some level of universalism that one can > > relate > >> to. In > >>> most books from that time there are things that a modern reader > > would > >> most > >>> probably skip. When Burwell writes on many pages about Angels, the > >> most > >>> usual reaction would be that she is a little bit potty in this > >> matter, but > >>> in general it's easier to accept some unusual believes as most > > people > >> know > >>> something about basic concepts of spiritual life in old ages. > > However > >> Music's > >>> Monument is more unique as it is more personal. It shows Mace's most > >>> personal views and ideas. One of the reasons for that is that > > Music's > >>> Monument wasn't written just for one rich sponsor (which would be a > >> normal > >>> way to go) like a king/queen, prince/princesse etc. He wrote it > >> encouraged > >>> by some of his pupils, and printed using his own means and those > >> collected > >>> from subscribers, however he says: "It cannot well be afforded at > >> that price > >>> (12s.), to return me any tollerable, or reasonable requital." > >>> On the subscription list there are around 300 names among which > > there > >> are > >>> only 2 barons, 4 baronets, 2 bishops, 4 knights - the rest being > >> scholars, > >>> clergyman and ordinary gentleman. Not writing for a court he took a > >>> different attitude: "But if I had only to have spoke to those of > >> experience > >>> and to show the elegancy of my tongue, I should have contriv'd my > >> discourse > >>> into another shape; But in that I intend it chiefly for learners, I > >> conceive > >>> I have not spoke much too much." If he was to write for a king he > >> would be > >>> afraid of saying much too much, and eccentricity of his book would > > be > >>> comparable to some French tutors written for a court. > >>> > >>> Therefore, when reading Music's Monument one has to remember that if > >> we were > >>> allowed to spend just an hour in the reality people in 17c. lived > > in, > >> we > >>> would be extremely surprised by some standards they were used to. It > >> is in > >>> fact like traveling to another planet, and we can not do justice to > >> this > >>> kind of sources without making some necessary adjustments. > >>> > >>> It was a pleasure to talk to you again Anthony. > >>> > >>> Best regards > >>> > >>> Jaroslaw > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Hind" > >> <[3][10][email protected]> > >>> To: "JarosAA'aw Lipski" <[4][11][email protected]> > >>> Cc: <[5][12][email protected]> > >>> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:19 PM > >>> Subject: [LUTE] Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > >>> > >>> > >>>> Dear Jaroslaw > >>>> A' A' A' A' As promised, back now in Paris, I will try to > >>>> respond, with a few new thoughts on Mace's string remarks, along > >> with > >>>> the old, as when we talked last at > >>>> [6][13]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > >>>> MaceA-c-s remarks can be found at > >>>> [7][14]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > >>>> But the CNRS facsimile is such a bargain, every lutenist should > >> surely have > >>>> one; unless, like a lute maker I know, you are lucky enough to be > >> given > >>>> an original edition for your birthday ... > >>>> % > >>>> First, I must say that my previous message, about loaded strings > >> being fairly > >>>> immune to humidity, only concerned modern loaded strings, which are > >>>> coated with copper in a sort of glue. If historic "deep dark red" > >>>> Pistoys had been loaded through saturation, with say a solution of > >> red > >>>> mercury oxide (akin to a dyeing procin to a dyeing process), I > >> donA-c-t know if they would > >>>> have been quite so immune to water absorption. But probably oxide > >>>> loading (rather like salting hams) might have prevented them > >> rotting, or > >>>> at leastA' slowed the process down (are there any chemists among > > you > >> who > >>>> could say if this is likely?). > >>>> % > >>>> I will reply to your messages, but breaking up my responses to > >> lighten the load: > >>>> I) Why MaceA-c-s Pistoy Basses dyed Deep dark red are quite > >> different from > >>>> his omnipurpose plain red coloured strings, and are not therefore > >>>> particularly prone to rotting according to Mace. > >>>> II) How reliable, and not just excentric, is Mace, a few arguments > >> in his favour? > >>>> A) Meanes used for octaves? B) Why were the Lyons Burwell thought > > so > >> good, > >>>> now so bad, according to Mace? (some data on out sourcing from > >>>> Barbieri) > >>>> % > >>>> I) Are Pistoys prone to rot according to Mace? > >>>> In relation to the rotting tendency of red strings, you ask me, > >>>> A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' A' "how will you explain a > >> quote from Mace p.66: > >>>>> A' A' "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very > >> good; yet but > >>>>> A' A' seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or > > of > >> the decay > >>>>> A' A' of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, > >> very good; > >>>>> A' A' but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly > >> rotten." > >>>>> A' A' As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of > >> loaded > >>>>> A' A' string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly > >> rotten?" Jaroslaw > >>>> Perhaps the "underlying" question, here (please tell me if I am > >> wrong), is > >>>> whether, when Mace describes Red coloured strings as "commonly > >> rotten" > >>>> (your quote above), he is including in this description, all red > >> strings > >>>> without exception (dyed or coloured), even those from Pistoy, which > >> are > >>>> dyedA' "deep dark red". In other words, is he saying Pistoys are > >>>> commonly rotten? and if so, would this rule them out as being > > loaded > >>>> strings? > >>>> % > >>>> Here, is my reasoning: Mace had a very strong preoccupation with > >> rotten gut, > >>>> clearly from personal experience (althoughxperience (although I > > have > >> never encountered this > >>>> problem), and he therefore gives detailed advice on how to store > >>>> strings to make sure they don't "take any wet, or moist air." > >> Further, > >>>> whenever he mentions a string liable to rot, he immediately states > >> this > >>>> within the next few sentences, as in all these cases : > >>>> "There is a small sort of lyons, which many use for the Octaves. > > But > >> I care > >>>> not for them, they being constantly rotten, and good for little, > > but > >> to > >>>> make frets of." > >>>> (...) > >>>> "I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; > >> yet, but > >>>> seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of the > >> decay > >>>> of the string." > >>>> (...) > >>>> "There are several sorts of coloured strings, very good; But the > >> best (to my > >>>> observation) was always the clear Blue; the Red, commonly rotten, > >>>> sometimes green, very good." > >>>> % > >>>> It would therefore be very surprising if he had not done the same > >> for > >>>> Pistoy Basses, if he had really thought they were often rotten, > >>>> especially as they were rare. Why allow a student to waste time > >>>> searching them out, if they are both rare, and often rottenA' ? But > >> he > >>>> only speaks of their excellent quality (next to the heading, "And > >> what > >>>> sort of strings are best?"), and clearly contrasts them with the > >>>> inferior Lyons, "They are indeed the very best, for the basses, > >> being > >>>> smooth and well twisted strings, but are hard to come by; however > >> out of > >>>> a good parcel of Lyons strings, you may (with care) pick those > > which > >>>> serve very well." Wouldn't he have immediately (within the next few > >>>> sentences) warned the reader about this danger, if there had been > >> any; > >>>> but follows a number of paragraphs, in which he explains "How to > >> chuse > >>>> your strings", giving rules for choosingA' Minikins, Venice > > Catlins, > >> and > >>>> Lyons, but not for Pistoys, presumably either because they are too > >> rare, > >>>> or because they are always good, in which case just the "deep dark > >>>> red", is sign enough to vouch for this stringA-c-s quality. During > >> these > >>>> explanations, he again insists that Lyons basses are inferior ey > > are > >> much more inferior strings than the other", but he does > >>>> not extend this criticism to Pistoys, which seem therefore to be > >>>> unparalleled in quality (indeed "the other" may actually be > >> referring > >>>> back to "Pistoys", the other type of bass string). > >>>> % > >>>> Finally, under the completely new heading "Coloured strings", he > >> talks of > >>>> yellowish, clear blue, red, and green strings, without giving any > >>>> indication of their use (while for all strings with a name which at > >>>> least originally implied a provenance, Minikin, Venices, Lyons, and > >>>> Pistoys, he took great care to discuss their uses. In this he does > >>>> exactly the same as Dowland, who mentions the same colours., but > >> gives > >>>> no indication of their use (while he does for other string types)A' > >> : > >>>> "Some strings there are which are coloured, out of which choose the > >> lightest > >>>> colours, viz. among the Greene choose the Sea- water, of Red the > >>>> Carnation, and of Blew the Watchet." Dowland (VLL, 1610, sig.Dv.) > >>>> [8][15]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > >>>> % > >>>> I suppose there are three possible interpretations for this,A' : 1) > >> the > >>>> colours discussed could be a natural coloration that can effect ANY > >>>> string type, except possibly Pistoys which are dyed dark red > > already > >>>> (indeed there are naturally coloured yellow, and brown strings, I > >> have > >>>> yellow and brown Venices, there are also red and black, but perhaps > >> not > >>>> green and blueA' ?); 2) they could be omnipurpose strings coloured > >> simply > >>>> for decorative use, for making an interesting pattern; 3) they > > could > >> be > >>>> general purpose strings that were coloured to work as position > >> markers, > >>>> just as with the synthetic harp strings shown here: > >>>> Position marking coloured synthetic harp strings: > >>>> [9][16]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > >>>> as indeed, Dan Larson can do for Lyons; here is an example of > >> coloured theorbo strings. > >>>> Position marking coloured gut theorbo strings: > >>>> [10][17]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > >>>> In all these cases above the red strings are not restricted to > >> basses, as they are in this one below: > >>>> Loaded basses, a modern lute strung in loaded Venices: > >>>> [11][18]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > >>>> A mixed case: before I had all loaded basses, I did tend to use my > >> Gimped > >>>> 7c as a position marker, while the colour from 8c down to 11c were > >> just > >>>> loaded basses : > >>>> [12][19]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > >>>> % > >>>> Does the iconography show similar patterns for historic lutes? > >>>> See [13][20]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >>>> There is a possible example of case 2, decorative use on P. 62/102 > >> (of text > >>>> above) Bilcius (?), 2nd half of the 17th C. detail of the bridge of > >> a 12 > >>>> course (but I have no modern example of this decorative use). > >>>> A' An example of case 3 position marker, could be RubensA-c- Lute > >> player: > >>>> [14][21]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > >>>> Ambiguous situation (case 2 or 3?), see P64/102 A-c-Dyed strings > > for > >> aesthetical purposesA-c- MP > >>>> [15][22]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >>>> It would be difficult to differentiate use (2) and (3) with > >> iconography, > >>>> and nothing could prevent a luthenist just using any colour he > >> happened > >>>> to have for any position, with no aesthetic or other intention what > >> ever. > >>>> Contrast these with the red basses, presumably Pistoys, shown here: > >>>> [16][23]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > >>>> % > >>>> Now all I can conclude from Mace, is that Pistoys dyed deep dark > > red > >> were > >>>> the very best basses of his time. We can not directly conclude from > >> this > >>>> that they were loaded, but it is highly likely they underwent some > >> sort > >>>> of special dyeing process, which, if loading with mercury salts was > >>>> involved, would be an integral part of their bass string quality; > >> but > >>>> conceivably it could also be the result of a curing preservation > >> process > >>>> involving these same oxides, or the same chemicals usedA' just to > >>>> distinguish them from any other bass string types (as a sort of > > seal > >> of > >>>> quality), but possibly all three purposes came together. > >>>> They were probably rare compared to Lyons (see IInd part) and > >> therefore > >>>> appear only on some of the best or most wealthy playerA-c-s lutes > >> (Charles > >>>> Mouton for example). > >>>> We can not expect to be able to recognize loading (over other > >> purposes) in a > >>>> painting (indeed it is hard to distinguish in the photos above); > >> even > >>>> if, in the hand, they might look and feel very different from the > >> simple > >>>> red coloured strings. > >>>> We only have indirect evidence for loading: the small bridge holes, > >> descriptions > >>>> of bass strings having been quite loud, and yet the French lutes > >> being > >>>> quite small (Charles Mouton), all this, including the colour, makes > >>>> loading a plausible hypothesis, but that has not been entirely > >> proved, > >>>> there are just strong indications. > >>>> To go further than this, we would need to discover a list of > >> chemicals > >>>> including mercury salts, etc, in the atelier of a string maker, or > >>>> similar chemical deposits. To my knowledge this has not been found, > >> as > >>>> yet (Barbieri did not find such data in Roman ateliers). > >>>> % > >>>> This is just my non-specialist musings around the data, Jaroslaw, > >> but I have very much enjoyed thinking about all this again. > >>>> % > >>>> Regards > >>>> Anthony > >>>> A' > >>>> A' A' A' A' DeA' : JarosAe^1aw Lipski > > <[17][24][email protected]> > >>>> Ae'A' : Anthony Hind <[18][25][email protected]> > >>>> EnvoyAe'AA le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 23h49 > >>>> ObjetA' : Re: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the > >> movement of the whole lute > >>>> > >>>> Dear Anthony, > >>>> > >>>> I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments for > >>>> loaded basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or > >>>> brown-red bass strings, which are supposed to had been loaded using > >>>> oxides of lead, copper, iron etc. We know from pictures that mainly > >>>> basses were red or reddish and if they were only dyed (as Mace > >>>> described), how can one discern them from loaded strings, and how > >> one > >>>> can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is no > >> difference > >>>> between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's descriptionA' > > I > >> get > >>>> an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts: > >>>> "There > >>>> is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I > >>>> conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are > >> commonly > >>>> dyed, with a deep dark red color" > >>>> The same person > >>>> writes > >>>> on the same page that red colored strings are commonly rotten. For > >> me > >>>> it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not loaded. > >>>> Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I > >> wouldn't > >>>> like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite > >>>> difficult to solve at the moment without any new data. > >>>> Meanwhile > >>>> (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove > >> superiority > >>>> of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages > >> and > >>>> disadvantages. > >>>> Nice to hear from you too. > >>>> Best wishes > >>>> > >>>> Jaroslaw > >>>> > >>>> P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses > >> all information objectively. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> WiadomoAe^1A" napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAe^1AAY 2012, > > o > >> godz. 22:13: > >>>> > >>>>> A' A' Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at > >> present are > >>>>> A' A' covered in the copper loading. > >>>>> A' A' I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of > >>>> an oxide, > >>>>> A' A' although presumably that > >>>>> A' A' should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could > >> result in > >>>>> A' A' various colours. > >>>>> A' A' But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can > >> also be > >>>>> A' A' reddish or yellowish in hue. > >>>>> A' A' I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of > >> loading. Aren't > >>>>> A' A' Georges Stoppani's strings rather red. > >>>>> A' A' I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but > >> nor are > >>>>> A' A' they loaded (although he may have made a few in > > experiments). > >>>>> A' A' Nice to hear from you again > >>>>> A' A' Best wishes > >>>>> A' A' Anthony > >>>>> A' A' A' > >> __________________________________________________________________ > >> > >> -- > >> > >> References > >> > >> 1. > > [26]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> 2. > > [27]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> 3. > > [28]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> 4. > > [29]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> 5. > > [30]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> 6. [31]http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > >> 7. [32]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > >> 8. [33]http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > >> 9. [34]http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > >> 10. [35]http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > >> 11. [36]http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > >> 12. [37]http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > >> 13. [38]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >> 14. [39]http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > >> 15. [40]http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > >> 16. [41]http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > >> 17. > > [42]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> 18. > > [43]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > >> > >> > >> To get on or off this list see list information at > >> [44]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 13. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > > 14. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > > 15. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > > 16. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > > 17. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > > 18. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > > 19. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > > 20. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 21. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > > 22. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 23. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > > 24. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 25. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 26. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 27. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 28. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 29. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 30. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 31. http://tinyurl.com/cugfph2 > > 32. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsmace.htm > > 33. http://www.luteshop.co.uk/stringsdowland.htm > > 34. http://tinyurl.com/cdgsm5l > > 35. http://tinyurl.com/9gcf9z6 > > 36. http://www.luthiste.com/images/rosace.jpg > > 37. http://tinyurl.com/czf8oy7 > > 38. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 39. http://tinyurl.com/9sjtjuf > > 40. http://www.aquilacorde.com/images/pdf/9e.pdf > > 41. http://tinyurl.com/9ry3r7b > > 42. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 43. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 44. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > --
