Dear Monica, Did I ever say it did 'prove' that Barberiis's instrument was figure8 shape? I've constantly repeated that I don't know - but that what I do know is that I'm unconvinced a sufficient case has been made (by Muecci or any other) that it was lute-shaped. I do wish you'd read what I wrote a bit more carefully......
You also ask ' Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than Spanish if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something specifically Italian about it.How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating between the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't know.' Well - what I actually said was that calling the two instruments by different names MIGHT simply be recognising that at one time, say the late 16th century when both the small 5 course and large 5 course were around (eg for the 1589 La Pellegrina intermede and especially for Cavalieri's grand chorus 'O che nuovo miracolo' ) it was useful and meaningful to differentiate the two instruments ie the small four course instrument (mostly used in Italy at the time) and the larger 5 course Spanish instrument. Note there's no need to assume that the differentiation means anything to do with the shape! And where did you get that I said the 4 course guitar was Spanish in origin? Again, puzzled...... But, as ever, regards to you Martyn PS You may have read the recent exchange I had with Wayne about freezing computers. So I've chopped off some of the earlier stuff from your email to avoid the problems - perhaps you (and others) could do the same when replying? M --- On Sun, 27/1/13, Monica Hall <[email protected]> wrote: From: Monica Hall <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]> Date: Sunday, 27 January, 2013, 16:13 The fact that the painting dates from 1620 doesn't prove that Barberiis' instrument was figure of 8 shaped. Barberiis' book was printed in 1549 not a century or so earlier and the instrument he refers presumably did not sink without trace in 1550. Your suggestion that the descriptor (Italian?) > might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to > differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument smacks to me of chop logic. Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than Spanish if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something specifically Italian about it. How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating bewteen the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't know. The Vocabulario della Crusca gives two definitions of the term Chitarra - to wit 1. Liuto piccolo, che manca del basso e del soprano A small lute which lacks the bass and soprano (courses) 2. Specie di liuto, ma piu piccolo e con meno corde A kind of lute but smaller and with fewer strings. In the entry for Liuto it gives the Latin equivalent "Testudo".Anyone cross-referencing the terms might be somewhat confused. And so on and so forth. But this thread is getting so long that we are losing it in a maze which may well lead us to the Minotaur but not to any new revelations. As ever Monica ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]> To: "William Samson" <[2][email protected]> Cc: "Lute List" <[3][email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:29 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > Dear Bill, > > Do you know the precise date and nationality/origin of this picture? - > it looks to me early 17th century from the costume. We discussed it in > this thread before and wondered if it had much to tell us about the 4 > course instrument Barberiis expected a century or so earlier...... > > As you'll know, the early 17th century was a time of much > experimentation and this might indeed be playing music for a 4 course > Italian guitar, but it might also be a mandore or similar..... > > Statements such as the ' "chitarra italiana" is the lute shaped type > of "kythara".' are of course simple assertions (and the subject of this > long and toruous thread) - as previously pointed out the descriptor > might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to > differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument. > > regards > > Martyn > > -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
