Hi Martyn & Monica,
Finally I have managed to dig up an iconographical source relevant to
the discussion, 16th century Italy. Of course, nothing proves that the
instrument depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some
lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place. The
picture predates the introduction of the French mandore and consequent
development towards the Italian baroque mandolin and is made by an
Italian painter mainly active in Rome, Bologna and Milan during the
later half of the 16th century.
The painting is called "Saint Cecilia" and the painter is Pellegrino
Tibaldi. You can have a look at the picture in black & white in Gallica
(use the buttons to enlarge details):
[1]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r
Of course the instrument of interest is the one laying on the table.
It's a pity the instrument is in perspective pointing towards us, which
makes it more difficult to judge the size. But at the very least we can
conclude it's smaller than the typical lute (almost the same than the
violin on the same table though difficult to judge exactly); and has
only a limited amount of courses. Though the instrument has 7 pegs, I
know of certain cases where pegs are added decoratively (both on
pictures and preserved instruments) so I won't base any final
judgements... but it seems to be a likely candidate for a four-course
lute-like gittern. (I'm wondering whether this might not be the type
referred to as the "small lute lacking the bass and soprano courses".)
I will continue to try and find any pictures of figure-8 shaped or
lute-like soprano plucked instruments but it's been hard to find even
this one...
Kind regards,
Pieter
_______________________________________________________________________
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>
Sent: 27 January 2013 18:14
To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Dear Monica,
Did I ever say it did 'prove' that Barberiis's instrument was figure8
shape? I've constantly repeated that I don't know - but that what I do
know is that I'm unconvinced a sufficient case has been made (by Muecci
or any other) that it was lute-shaped. I do wish you'd read what I
wrote a bit more carefully......
You also ask
' Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than
Spanish
if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for
referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something
specifically Italian about it.How you manage to deduce from this that
it is differentiating between the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't
know.'
Well - what I actually said was that calling the two instruments by
different names MIGHT simply be recognising that at one time, say the
late 16th century when both the small 5 course and large 5 course were
around (eg for the 1589 La Pellegrina intermede and especially for
Cavalieri's grand chorus 'O che nuovo miracolo' ) it was useful and
meaningful to differentiate the two instruments ie the small four
course instrument (mostly used in Italy at the time) and the larger 5
course Spanish instrument. Note there's no need to assume that the
differentiation means anything to do with the shape!
And where did you get that I said the 4 course guitar was Spanish in
origin?
Again, puzzled......
But, as ever, regards to you
Martyn
PS You may have read the recent exchange I had with Wayne about
freezing computers. So I've chopped off some of the earlier stuff from
your email to avoid the problems - perhaps you (and others) could do
the same when replying?
M
--- On Sun, 27/1/13, Monica Hall <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Monica Hall <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>
Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]>
Date: Sunday, 27 January, 2013, 16:13
The fact that the painting dates from 1620 doesn't prove that
Barberiis'
instrument was figure of 8 shaped. Barberiis' book was printed in 1549
not
a century or so earlier and the instrument he refers presumably did not
sink
without trace in 1550.
Your suggestion that the descriptor (Italian?)
might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to
differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument
smacks to me of chop logic.
Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than
Spanish
if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for
referring
to it as Italian was presumably because there was something
specifically
Italian about it.
How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating bewteen
the 4-
and
5-course guitars I don't know.
The Vocabulario della Crusca gives two definitions of the term Chitarra
-
to wit
1. Liuto piccolo, che manca del basso e del soprano
A small lute which lacks the bass and soprano (courses)
2. Specie di liuto, ma piu piccolo e con meno corde
A kind of lute but smaller and with fewer strings.
In the entry for Liuto it gives the Latin equivalent "Testudo".Anyone
cross-referencing the terms might be somewhat confused.
And so on and so forth. But this thread is getting so long that we are
losing it in a maze which may well lead us to the Minotaur but not to
any
new revelations.
As ever
Monica
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]>
To: "William Samson" <[2][email protected]>
Cc: "Lute List" <[3][email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:29 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy
Dear Bill,
Do you know the precise date and nationality/origin of this
picture? -
it looks to me early 17th century from the costume. We discussed it
in
this thread before and wondered if it had much to tell us about the
4
course instrument Barberiis expected a century or so earlier......
As you'll know, the early 17th century was a time of much
experimentation and this might indeed be playing music for a 4
course
Italian guitar, but it might also be a mandore or similar.....
Statements such as the ' "chitarra italiana" is the lute shaped
type
of "kythara".' are of course simple assertions (and the subject of
this
long and toruous thread) - as previously pointed out the descriptor
might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to
differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument.
regards
Martyn
--
References
1.
http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]
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References
1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r
