Dear Davide, Thank you for this: but why are you so sure it is a 'chitarra italiana' and not a mandore or, indeed, any other small lute? Such an assertion and identification is rather begging the precise question we have been trying to tackle in this (tortuous) thread
regards Martyn --- On Mon, 28/1/13, Davide Rebuffa <[email protected]> wrote: From: Davide Rebuffa <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy To: [email protected] Cc: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]>, "Monica Hall" <[email protected]>, "Lutelist" <[email protected]> Date: Monday, 28 January, 2013, 11:35 No, as I wrote you were looking in the right way concerning the instrument; it is not a french mandore and of course it is not a mandolino, it is a good example of a chitarra italiana. By the way there are many other paintings. best regards, Davide Il giorno 28/gen/2013, alle ore 11:51, Pieter Van Tichelen ha scritto: All right, my mistake. It's listed to be by Tibaldi by Gallica and some other reference works I had consulted. Fair enough. In that case it's much more likely to be a mandore, actually. So not relevant to this discussion. Kind regards, Pieter ____________________________________________________________________ From: "Davide Rebuffa" <[1][email protected]> Sent: 28 January 2013 11:38 To: [2][email protected] Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy Dear Pieter, you are looking in the right way concerning the instrument but not the painter and the century. I wonder how did you could find that the painting you mention could be form Tibaldi because it is by Antiveduto della Grammatica (copies in Wien KHM, Treviso, Museo Civico and one also in Spain or Portugal, I have to check.) and is dated around 1620. Kind regards, Davide Il giorno 28/gen/2013, alle ore 11:11, Pieter Van Tichelen ha scritto: > Hi Martyn & Monica, > Finally I have managed to dig up an iconographical source relevant to > the discussion, 16th century Italy. Of course, nothing proves that the > instrument depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some > lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place. The > picture predates the introduction of the French mandore and consequent > development towards the Italian baroque mandolin and is made by an > Italian painter mainly active in Rome, Bologna and Milan during the > later half of the 16th century. > The painting is called "Saint Cecilia" and the painter is Pellegrino > Tibaldi. You can have a look at the picture in black & white in Gallica > (use the buttons to enlarge details): > [1][3]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r > Of course the instrument of interest is the one laying on the table. > It's a pity the instrument is in perspective pointing towards us, which > makes it more difficult to judge the size. But at the very least we can > conclude it's smaller than the typical lute (almost the same than the > violin on the same table though difficult to judge exactly); and has > only a limited amount of courses. Though the instrument has 7 pegs, I > know of certain cases where pegs are added decoratively (both on > pictures and preserved instruments) so I won't base any final > judgements... but it seems to be a likely candidate for a four-course > lute-like gittern. (I'm wondering whether this might not be the type > referred to as the "small lute lacking the bass and soprano courses".) > I will continue to try and find any pictures of figure-8 shaped or > lute-like soprano plucked instruments but it's been hard to find even > this one... > Kind regards, > Pieter > ____________________________________________________________________ ___ > > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[4][email protected]> > Sent: 27 January 2013 18:14 > To: "Monica Hall" <[5][email protected]> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > Dear Monica, > Did I ever say it did 'prove' that Barberiis's instrument was figure8 > shape? I've constantly repeated that I don't know - but that what I do > know is that I'm unconvinced a sufficient case has been made (by Muecci > or any other) that it was lute-shaped. I do wish you'd read what I > wrote a bit more carefully...... > You also ask > ' Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than > Spanish > if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for > referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something > specifically Italian about it.How you manage to deduce from this that > it is differentiating between the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't > know.' > Well - what I actually said was that calling the two instruments by > different names MIGHT simply be recognising that at one time, say the > late 16th century when both the small 5 course and large 5 course were > around (eg for the 1589 La Pellegrina intermede and especially for > Cavalieri's grand chorus 'O che nuovo miracolo' ) it was useful and > meaningful to differentiate the two instruments ie the small four > course instrument (mostly used in Italy at the time) and the larger 5 > course Spanish instrument. Note there's no need to assume that the > differentiation means anything to do with the shape! > And where did you get that I said the 4 course guitar was Spanish in > origin? > Again, puzzled...... > But, as ever, regards to you > Martyn > PS You may have read the recent exchange I had with Wayne about > freezing computers. So I've chopped off some of the earlier stuff from > your email to avoid the problems - perhaps you (and others) could do > the same when replying? > M > --- On Sun, 27/1/13, Monica Hall <[6][email protected]> wrote: > From: Monica Hall <[7][email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[8][email protected]> > Cc: "Lutelist" <[9][email protected]> > Date: Sunday, 27 January, 2013, 16:13 > The fact that the painting dates from 1620 doesn't prove that > Barberiis' > instrument was figure of 8 shaped. Barberiis' book was printed in 1549 > not > a century or so earlier and the instrument he refers presumably did not > sink > without trace in 1550. > Your suggestion that the descriptor (Italian?) >> might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to >> differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument > smacks to me of chop logic. > Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than > Spanish > if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for > referring > to it as Italian was presumably because there was something > specifically > Italian about it. > How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating bewteen > the 4- > and > 5-course guitars I don't know. > The Vocabulario della Crusca gives two definitions of the term Chitarra > - > to wit > 1. Liuto piccolo, che manca del basso e del soprano > A small lute which lacks the bass and soprano (courses) > 2. Specie di liuto, ma piu piccolo e con meno corde > A kind of lute but smaller and with fewer strings. > In the entry for Liuto it gives the Latin equivalent "Testudo".Anyone > cross-referencing the terms might be somewhat confused. > And so on and so forth. But this thread is getting so long that we are > losing it in a maze which may well lead us to the Minotaur but not to > any > new revelations. > As ever > Monica > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][10][email protected]> > To: "William Samson" <[2][11][email protected]> > Cc: "Lute List" <[3][12][email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:29 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy >> >> Dear Bill, >> >> Do you know the precise date and nationality/origin of this > picture? - >> it looks to me early 17th century from the costume. We discussed it > in >> this thread before and wondered if it had much to tell us about the > 4 >> course instrument Barberiis expected a century or so earlier...... >> >> As you'll know, the early 17th century was a time of much >> experimentation and this might indeed be playing music for a 4 > course >> Italian guitar, but it might also be a mandore or similar..... >> >> Statements such as the ' "chitarra italiana" is the lute shaped > type >> of "kythara".' are of course simple assertions (and the subject of > this >> long and toruous thread) - as previously pointed out the descriptor >> might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to >> differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument. >> >> regards >> >> Martyn >>> > -- > References > 1. > [13]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmartyn@yahoo .co.uk > 2. [14]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] .uk > 3. [15]http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] du > To get on or off this list see list information at > [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > > References > > 1. [17]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r > -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to%c3%[email protected] 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 3. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r 4. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 5. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 6. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 9. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 10. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 11. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 12. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 13. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 14. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 15. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 17. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r
