No, as I wrote you were looking in the right way concerning the instrument; it is not a french mandore and of course it is not a mandolino, it is a good example of a chitarra italiana. By the way there are many other paintings.
best regards, Davide Il giorno 28/gen/2013, alle ore 11:51, Pieter Van Tichelen ha scritto: > All right, my mistake. It's listed to be by Tibaldi by Gallica and some other > reference works I had consulted. > > Fair enough. > > In that case it's much more likely to be a mandore, actually. So not relevant > to this discussion. > > Kind regards, > Pieter > > From: "Davide Rebuffa" <[email protected]> > Sent: 28 January 2013 11:38 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > Dear Pieter, > > you are looking in the right way concerning the instrument but not the > painter and the century. > I wonder how did you could find that the painting you mention could be form > Tibaldi because it is by Antiveduto della Grammatica > (copies in Wien KHM, Treviso, Museo Civico and one also in Spain or Portugal, > I have to check.) and is dated around 1620. > > Kind regards, > > Davide > > > > > > > Il giorno 28/gen/2013, alle ore 11:11, Pieter Van Tichelen ha scritto: > > > Hi Martyn & Monica, > > Finally I have managed to dig up an iconographical source relevant to > > the discussion, 16th century Italy. Of course, nothing proves that the > > instrument depicted is a "chitarrino" but at least it proves some > > lute-like instrument of soprano range at that time and place. The > > picture predates the introduction of the French mandore and consequent > > development towards the Italian baroque mandolin and is made by an > > Italian painter mainly active in Rome, Bologna and Milan during the > > later half of the 16th century. > > The painting is called "Saint Cecilia" and the painter is Pellegrino > > Tibaldi. You can have a look at the picture in black & white in Gallica > > (use the buttons to enlarge details): > > [1]http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r > > Of course the instrument of interest is the one laying on the table. > > It's a pity the instrument is in perspective pointing towards us, which > > makes it more difficult to judge the size. But at the very least we can > > conclude it's smaller than the typical lute (almost the same than the > > violin on the same table though difficult to judge exactly); and has > > only a limited amount of courses. Though the instrument has 7 pegs, I > > know of certain cases where pegs are added decoratively (both on > > pictures and preserved instruments) so I won't base any final > > judgements... but it seems to be a likely candidate for a four-course > > lute-like gittern. (I'm wondering whether this might not be the type > > referred to as the "small lute lacking the bass and soprano courses".) > > I will continue to try and find any pictures of figure-8 shaped or > > lute-like soprano plucked instruments but it's been hard to find even > > this one... > > Kind regards, > > Pieter > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > > > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > > Sent: 27 January 2013 18:14 > > To: "Monica Hall" <[email protected]> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > Dear Monica, > > Did I ever say it did 'prove' that Barberiis's instrument was figure8 > > shape? I've constantly repeated that I don't know - but that what I do > > know is that I'm unconvinced a sufficient case has been made (by Muecci > > or any other) that it was lute-shaped. I do wish you'd read what I > > wrote a bit more carefully...... > > You also ask > > ' Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than > > Spanish > > if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for > > referring to it as Italian was presumably because there was something > > specifically Italian about it.How you manage to deduce from this that > > it is differentiating between the 4- and 5-course guitars I don't > > know.' > > Well - what I actually said was that calling the two instruments by > > different names MIGHT simply be recognising that at one time, say the > > late 16th century when both the small 5 course and large 5 course were > > around (eg for the 1589 La Pellegrina intermede and especially for > > Cavalieri's grand chorus 'O che nuovo miracolo' ) it was useful and > > meaningful to differentiate the two instruments ie the small four > > course instrument (mostly used in Italy at the time) and the larger 5 > > course Spanish instrument. Note there's no need to assume that the > > differentiation means anything to do with the shape! > > And where did you get that I said the 4 course guitar was Spanish in > > origin? > > Again, puzzled...... > > But, as ever, regards to you > > Martyn > > PS You may have read the recent exchange I had with Wayne about > > freezing computers. So I've chopped off some of the earlier stuff from > > your email to avoid the problems - perhaps you (and others) could do > > the same when replying? > > M > > --- On Sun, 27/1/13, Monica Hall <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > > To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[email protected]> > > Cc: "Lutelist" <[email protected]> > > Date: Sunday, 27 January, 2013, 16:13 > > The fact that the painting dates from 1620 doesn't prove that > > Barberiis' > > instrument was figure of 8 shaped. Barberiis' book was printed in 1549 > > not > > a century or so earlier and the instrument he refers presumably did not > > sink > > without trace in 1550. > > Your suggestion that the descriptor (Italian?) > >> might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to > >> differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument > > smacks to me of chop logic. > > Why should the 4-course guitar be referred as Italian, rather than > > Spanish > > if it was Spanish in origin? Or even French. The only reason for > > referring > > to it as Italian was presumably because there was something > > specifically > > Italian about it. > > How you manage to deduce from this that it is differentiating bewteen > > the 4- > > and > > 5-course guitars I don't know. > > The Vocabulario della Crusca gives two definitions of the term Chitarra > > - > > to wit > > 1. Liuto piccolo, che manca del basso e del soprano > > A small lute which lacks the bass and soprano (courses) > > 2. Specie di liuto, ma piu piccolo e con meno corde > > A kind of lute but smaller and with fewer strings. > > In the entry for Liuto it gives the Latin equivalent "Testudo".Anyone > > cross-referencing the terms might be somewhat confused. > > And so on and so forth. But this thread is getting so long that we are > > losing it in a maze which may well lead us to the Minotaur but not to > > any > > new revelations. > > As ever > > Monica > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Martyn Hodgson" <[1][email protected]> > > To: "William Samson" <[2][email protected]> > > Cc: "Lute List" <[3][email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:29 AM > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: 4 course guitar in Italy > >> > >> Dear Bill, > >> > >> Do you know the precise date and nationality/origin of this > > picture? - > >> it looks to me early 17th century from the costume. We discussed it > > in > >> this thread before and wondered if it had much to tell us about the > > 4 > >> course instrument Barberiis expected a century or so earlier...... > >> > >> As you'll know, the early 17th century was a time of much > >> experimentation and this might indeed be playing music for a 4 > > course > >> Italian guitar, but it might also be a mandore or similar..... > >> > >> Statements such as the ' "chitarra italiana" is the lute shaped > > type > >> of "kythara".' are of course simple assertions (and the subject of > > this > >> long and toruous thread) - as previously pointed out the descriptor > >> might simply mean a small 4 course guitar (of whatever shape) to > >> differentiate it from the larger 5 course instrument. > >> > >> regards > >> > >> Martyn > >>> > > -- > > References > > 1. > > http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected] > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > > > References > > > > 1. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8428483r > > > > > --
