Thanks, Chris You've raised the level of discourse.
Best, Joe On 12/12/13 8:48 AM, "Christopher Wilke" <chriswi...@yahoo.com> wrote: > Joe, > > No need to be offended. You raise some good points. Because of my > activities as a classical guitarist and lutenist, I must occasionally contend > with nails and lack of nails on each instrument. The biggest hurdle has been > baroque lute. Until relatively recently, I could not any kind of acceptable > sound out of it when I had nails, but after much effort, I think I've finally > cracked how to do it. > > It is NOT true that playing with nails results in the individual strings of a > course being played one after another. This only happens if one assumes that > "playing with nails" simply means transferring modern classical guitar > technique to the lute in toto. I can get a full sound with nails, but I don't > play the lute like a classical guitar when the nails are present and I can't > play it the same way as I do without nails. Unfortunately, I have found few > models regarding what sort of technique is needed to play the lute with nails. > It's been completely a method of trial and error. That's a scary path to trend > when you've got a concert coming up! (For what it's worth, there are also no > real modern models regarding how to play baroque lute with a historically > accurate right hand position in general.) > > Joe, I think you have some valid points which are well worth considering > seriously. > > Chris > > > > Dr. Christopher Wilke D.M.A. > Lutenist, Guitarist and Composer > www.christopherwilke.com > > -------------------------------------------- > On Thu, 12/12/13, Mayes, Joseph <ma...@rowan.edu> wrote: > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed > To: "Bruno Correia" <bruno.l...@gmail.com>, "List LUTELIST" > <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Thursday, December 12, 2013, 8:01 AM > > OK good people, this will be my final > post on this subject. I grow weary of > the gratuitous condescension and infuriating belittlement - > "take the > trouble to learn how to do it," indeed. > > > On 12/11/13 9:26 PM, "Bruno Correia" <bruno.l...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> 2013/12/11 Mayes, Joseph <[1]ma...@rowan.edu> >> Well, browse the recordings since mid > seventies. >> >> Well, I was sort of fearing some > push-back from the "tap-dancing >> barefoot" crowd. I don't know how > you can speak for most of the >> lutenists out there. I certainly > only meant to speak for me. >> >> >> No it doesn't. Lamentable only for those > who didn't have the trouble to >> learn how to do it. Ask Hoppy, O'Dette, > North, Herringman, Lislevand, >> Ferre, Barto (the list is too big...) and > many others how to do it. >> It's not that difficult and the result is > pure joy. > Right back to - if Paul does it, it must be right. I wish > you joy of your > "pure joy." >> >> Sweetness requires nails. The sound > - sort of a "thub, thub" one >> achieves without them is so > unsatisfying as to be lamentable. >> >> Fungus? That's pure speculation. About > Sor, check his method, no >> research needed it's there. > Yes Sor advised against nails - the word I objected to was > "hated" I don't > see that in the method. >> >> Tarrega played with nails until he > lost them due to fungus - He >> convinced his late-in-life student > Pujol that flesh was the way to >> go. Sor hated nails? I'd like to > see that research. >> >> >> Rubish, Dolmetsch didn't study enough lute > praxis and Bream wasn't a >> lutenist in the first place (actually he > never assumed he was - this is >> documented in an interview). The stars do > not agree entirely with >> themselves, but the important points > remain the same. > I guess you're more acquainted with "rubish" than am I. For > someone who > wasn't a lutenist, Bream recorded and performed quite a > lot. >> >> As for "asking Hoppy," I think that > illustrates part of the problem >> with the HIP folks. Because the > stars do it one way - that's the >> right way. Bear in mind that > Dolmetch and Bream, et al thought they >> had it right, too. >> >> I thought this list was supposedly a place > to discuss lute performance >> practice and not each ones taste. Some > people may prefer to play with >> nails on carbon single strings and with > amplification. What does it >> have to do with HIP? > Lute performance practice has everything to do with each > one's taste. I > assume that historical performance varied as greatly as > contemporary > performance - dictated by "each one's taste." But really, I > am as HIP as the > next fellow - I sound just like the paintings. >> >> But, as I say, I'm not trying to > convince anyone of anything. Play >> any way you want to, just leave the > dogma on the porch. >> Joseph Mayes >> > ________________________________________ >> From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > On >> Behalf Of Bruno Correia [[4]bruno.l...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2013 > 8:29 PM >> To: List LUTELIST >> >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I > just noticed >> >> It may sound good to > you, but not for most of the lutenists out >> there. >> Ask Hoppy about this > issue? Ok, you don't need to ask him, after all >> you don't ride a horse > to the gig... Hey, I'd like to do that, the >> traffic has been so bad > nowadays. >> The most frequent word > to describe the lute's sound is sweetness! >> How >> can you have achieve it > with nails? Double strings also require that >> both strings be pressed > at once and not one after the other. The >> lute >> is after all a sweet > instrument (specially with gut). Even in >> classical >> guitar tutors (19th-20th > century) the issue of nails was still >> rolling >> on. Sor hated it and > only tolerated Aguado because of his great >> skill. >> That's why Tarrega and > Pujol also avoided it (even if it was a >> requirement due to the > high tension of the Torres guitar). >> Going back: The sources > were just saying that many people were >> careless >> about their sound > production. In order to avoid it, what about >> cutting >> your nails once and a > while, washing your hands (daily if you can)? >> 2013/12/10 Mayes, Joseph > <[1][5]ma...@rowan.edu> >> >> I play the lute, > archlute and vihuela with nails for the same >> reason >> that I >> play the > classical guitar with nails: because it sounds better! >> Of course, by > that I mean it sounds better to me. Nails give the >> attack a >> precision that > flesh does not. It also comes closer, IMHO to the >> sound >> usually described > in historical sources as desirable on lute - >> silvery, >> tinkling, etc. >> Many sources tell > us not to use nails - which they wouldn't have >> bothered to >> do if people were > not doing it that way. >> I don't play with > flesh, I don't ride my horse to the gig, and I >> don't >> attend any > bear-bating. >> My $.02 >> Joseph mayes >> >> -- >> References >> 1. mailto:[6]ma...@rowan.edu >> >> To get on or off this list see list > information at >> >> [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> -- >> Bruno Figueiredo >> >> Pesquisador autonomo da pratica e > interpretac,ao >> historicamente informada no alaude e > teorba. >> Doutor em Praticas Interpretativas pela >> Universidade Federal do Estado do Rio de > Janeiro. >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu >> 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 3. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >> 4. mailto:bruno.l...@gmail.com >> 5. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu >> 6. mailto:ma...@rowan.edu >> 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
