No nails? On the theorbo? Lex
Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. -------- Oorspronkelijk bericht -------- Van: Ron Andrico <[email protected]> Datum: 06-03-19 20:30 (GMT+01:00) Aan: Lute List <[email protected]> Onderwerp: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Thank you Martyn. It's about time we all sorted out this popular misconception. I have encountered several classical guitarists who still think their right hand position must be completely altered to play lute, and it's a surprise to them when I say that their hand position is probably optimal for baroque lute and theorbo - perhaps minus the nails. RA __________________________________________________________________ From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Martyn Hodgson <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 3:55 PM To: Lute List; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Indeed. I well recall Eph Segerman remarking several years ago that the obsession with thumb-under was, and for many remains, an attempt by some modern lutenists to distance themselves from the hated classical guitar which, ironically, many had started out on! As you say Ron, the evidence is very clear MH On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 13:08:10 GMT, Ron Andrico <[email protected]> wrote: Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless, music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the thumb out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments. Isn't it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual historical examples? __________________________________________________________________ From: [1][email protected] <[2][email protected]> on behalf of Martin Shepherd <[3][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Dear All, Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it all the time. The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r) all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end of system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index. I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's recent talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH fingerings. Martin On 06/03/2019 08:06, [4][email protected] wrote: > Sorry: 'original', naturally! > > Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. > Originalnachricht > Von: [5][email protected] > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49 > An: Lute net > Antwort an: [6][email protected] > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > > > Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, > > There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye text englished contains the passage... > > Best > > Joachim > > > Originalnachricht > Von: Alain Veylit > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32 > Antwort an: [7][email protected] > Cc: Lute net > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky > > > Jurgen, > > It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw > it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the > Varietie of Lute Lessons? > > Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... > > Alain > > On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: >> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that suggestion. >> Thanks, >> jurgen >> >> >> ---------------------------------- >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." >> >> JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi >> >> âââââââ Original Message âââââââ. >> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit <[8][email protected]> wrote: >> >>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: >>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which >>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can >>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... >>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger >>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on >>> it, and it should remain extended. >>> >>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter >>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed >>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else >>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb >>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, >>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music >>> history... >>> >>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: >>> >>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in the stars. >>>> D ick Brook >>>> >>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit [9][email protected] wrote: >>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? >>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? >>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. >>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :) >>>>>> Rainer >>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>> [1][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [2][11]https://www.avast.com/antivirus References 1. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 2. [13]https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- References 1. [1]mailto:[email protected] 2. [2]mailto:[email protected] 3. [3]mailto:[email protected] 4. [4]mailto:[email protected] 5. [5]mailto:[email protected] 6. [6]mailto:[email protected] 7. [7]mailto:[email protected] 8. [8]mailto:[email protected] 9. [9]mailto:[email protected] 10. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 11. [11]https://www.avast.com/antivirus 12. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 13. 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