There is another important aspect of this shift in hand position, and that is the sound. Try playing your lute with thumb under, near the rose, and then thumb out near the bridge. With the latter it makes a much more penetrating sound which carries better against a singer or other instruments, and would also carry better in a larger hall/room. This surely is an important part of the change in hand position. And it is almost impossible to play thumb/finger runs thumb out with octave stringing , so the introduction of unison strings on the lower 6 courses might have been a factor - it allows this shift in hand position, which was perhaps driven in part by the changing uses of the lute, to take place. After all, wasn't the original reason for creating the theorbo not least to give the instrument more 'welly'? So, as Martin says, playing a theorbo with thumb inside kind of defeats the object! Robin Irvine
On 06/03/2019, 16:51, "Martin Shepherd" <[email protected] on behalf of [email protected]> wrote: Robinson recommends thumb-under: "...with your thumb behind your fingers". (sig.Bii). Waissel (1592) also recommends thumb-under - he says it's faster. But for what it's worth, I think thumb out was very common by 1600, and easily the most common technique by 1610. For me, the transition seems to be driven by the number of courses - it seems OK to play a 7c lute with either technique, but once you get to 8 or more courses it really seems to demand thumb out. Vallet and ML both give two dots for middle finger, one dot for index, and in both it is clear that most running passages are played alternating the two. In faster passages, where only single dots are present, I think we can infer thumb-index alternation but with the thumb outside, not inside. Martin On 06/03/2019 17:02, Alain Veylit wrote: > Thomas Robinson's Schoole of musicke gives very detailed fingering > information and might be interesting to check also on this topic. > > I personally remain convinced that there was a transitional period > (1600-1610ish) when both techniques were in use -- possibly in the > same piece. Single dots on the 5th and 6th course in Vallet or Besard > or ML could provide some element of proof, perhaps ... > > Rainer has worked a lot on Vallet recently, may be he can share his > findings on this topic?? > > > On 3/6/19 5:22 AM, Andreas Schlegel wrote: >> Dear Ron, >> >>> Am 06.03.2019 um 13:59 schrieb Ron Andrico <[email protected]>: >>> >>> Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and >>> Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless, >>> music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the >>> thumb >>> out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I >>> still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using >>> thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical >>> precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments. >>> Isn't >>> it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus >>> lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual >>> historical examples? >> That’s exactly the goal of our summer course in Chiavenna (with >> Paul Beier, Vinicius Perez and me): >> - Understanding historical lute techniques >> - Reading original sources and understanding the kinds of information >> found in them >> - Establishing a repertoire illustrative of historical techniques >> - Studying original lutes and lute construction (with Klaus Jacobsen) >> - Developing an awareness of our goals as musicians >> >> See here: >> http://www.musico.it/chiavennabaroque/ >> >> It’s really time to change something. >> >> Andreas >> >>> __________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on >>> behalf >>> of Martin Shepherd <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM >>> To: Lute List >>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky >>> >>> Dear All, >>> Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being >>> the >>> best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside >>> easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position >>> during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index >>> alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do >>> it all >>> the time. >>> The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting >>> indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML >>> ff.14v-15r) >>> all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a >>> running >>> passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which >>> have no >>> double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played >>> thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the >>> speed >>> of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the >>> middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula >>> (end >>> of >>> system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index. >>> I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's >>> recent >>> talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH >>> fingerings. >>> Martin >>> On 06/03/2019 08:06, [email protected] wrote: >>>> Sorry: 'original', naturally! >>>> >>>> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. >>>> Originalnachricht >>>> Von: [email protected] >>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49 >>>> An: Lute net >>>> Antwort an: [email protected] >>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky >>>> >>>> >>>> Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, >>>> >>>> There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of >>> Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember >>> if ye >>> text englished contains the passage... >>>> Best >>>> >>>> Joachim >>>> >>>> >>>> Originalnachricht >>>> Von: Alain Veylit >>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32 >>>> Antwort an: [email protected] >>>> Cc: Lute net >>>> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky >>>> >>>> >>>> Jurgen, >>>> >>>> It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I >>> saw >>>> it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the >>>> Varietie of Lute Lessons? >>>> >>>> Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... >>>> >>>> Alain >>>> >>>> On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: >>>>> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made >>> that suggestion. >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> jurgen >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------------------------------- >>>>> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." >>>>> >>>>> JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi >>>>> >>>>> â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€. >>>>> On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand >>> pinky: >>>>>> plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which >>>>>> requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger >>> can >>>>>> bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but >>> ... >>>>>> For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little >>> finger >>>>>> is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly >>> brushing on >>>>>> it, and it should remain extended. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would >>> alter >>>>>> the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a >>> mixed >>>>>> technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever >>> else >>>>>> (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the >>> thumb >>>>>> to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand >>> position, >>>>>> and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music >>>>>> history... >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend >>> that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the >>> fault was in my head, not in the stars. >>>>>>> D ick Brook >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit >>> [email protected] wrote: >>>>>>>> Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American >>> series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, >>> and the >>> only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little >>> finger? >>>>>>>> Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix >>> playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? >>>>>>>> On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the >>> rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has >>> probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by >>> choice >>> or force. >>>>>>>>> And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was >>> an alien :) >>>>>>>>> Rainer >>>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>>>>>>> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >>> References >>> >>> 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> 2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >> Andreas Schlegel >> Eckstr. 6 >> CH-5737 Menziken >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63 >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> -- > >
