Maybe just âadjust' the nails. Nails have a range where they work OK on either instrument. In my experience, the center of the range for lute is shorter than the range for guitar, but there is some overlap. It is not necessary to give up one instrument for the other, just find the length that works acceptably for each.
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. On Mar 6, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Ron Andrico <[1][email protected]> wrote: Thank you Martyn. It's about time we all sorted out this popular misconception. I have encountered several classical guitarists who still think their right hand position must be completely altered to play lute, and it's a surprise to them when I say that their hand position is probably optimal for baroque lute and theorbo - perhaps minus the nails. RA __________________________________________________________________ From: [2][email protected] <[3][email protected]> on behalf of Martyn Hodgson <[4][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 3:55 PM To: Lute List; Ron Andrico Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Indeed. I well recall Eph Segerman remarking several years ago that the obsession with thumb-under was, and for many remains, an attempt by some modern lutenists to distance themselves from the hated classical guitar which, ironically, many had started out on! As you say Ron, the evidence is very clear MH On Wednesday, 6 March 2019, 13:08:10 GMT, Ron Andrico <[5][email protected]> wrote: Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless, music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the thumb out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments. Isn't it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual historical examples? __________________________________________________________________ From: [1][6][email protected] <[2][7][email protected]> on behalf of Martin Shepherd <[3][8][email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM To: Lute List Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Dear All, Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it all the time. The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r) all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula (end of system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index. I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's recent talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH fingerings. Martin On 06/03/2019 08:06, [4][9][email protected] wrote: Sorry: 'original', naturally! Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone. Originalnachricht Von: [5][10][email protected] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49 An: Lute net Antwort an: [6][11][email protected] Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Dear Alan, dear Jurgen, There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye text englished contains the passage... Best Joachim Originalnachricht Von: Alain Veylit Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32 Antwort an: [7][12][email protected] Cc: Lute net Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky Jurgen, It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I saw it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the Varietie of Lute Lessons? Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ... Alain On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote: It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made that suggestion. Thanks, jurgen ---------------------------------- "There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen." JalÃl ad-Dën Muhammad Rumi âââââââ Original Message âââââââ. On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit <[8][13][email protected]> wrote: That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand pinky: plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger can bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but ... For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little finger is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly brushing on it, and it should remain extended. Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would alter the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a mixed technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever else (chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the thumb to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand position, and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music history... On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote: Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the fault was in my head, not in the stars. D ick Brook On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit [9][14][email protected] wrote: Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise, and the only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little finger? Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think? On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote: On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote: And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by choice or force. And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was an alien :) Rainer To get on or off this list see list information at [1][10][15]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs .dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SR Qusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBR t90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6 zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [2][11][16]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInu Ky6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v _OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9i mC4&e= References 1. [12][17]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dart mouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9 vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E& m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHs PstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 2. [13][18]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast. com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r= VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90Wqv dcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= -- References 1. [1][19]mailto:[email protected] 2. [2][20]mailto:[email protected] 3. [3][21]mailto:[email protected] 4. [4][22]mailto:[email protected] 5. [5][23]mailto:[email protected] 6. [6][24]mailto:[email protected] 7. [7][25]mailto:[email protected] 8. [8][26]mailto:[email protected] 9. [9][27]mailto:[email protected] 10. [10][28]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dart mouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9 vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E& m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHs PstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 11. [11][29]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast. com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r= VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90Wqv dcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 12. [12][30]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dart mouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9 vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E& m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHs PstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 13. [13][31]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast. com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r= VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90Wqv dcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= -- References 1. [32]mailto:[email protected] 2. [33]mailto:[email protected] 3. [34]mailto:[email protected] 4. [35]mailto:[email protected] 5. [36]mailto:[email protected] 6. [37]mailto:[email protected] 7. [38]mailto:[email protected] 8. [39]mailto:[email protected] 9. [40]mailto:[email protected] 10. [41]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmout h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0 n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va 9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT _yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 11. [42]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_ antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ 8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSS T5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 12. [43]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmout h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0 n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va 9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT _yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 13. [44]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_ antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ 8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSS T5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= References 1. mailto:[email protected] 2. mailto:[email protected] 3. mailto:[email protected] 4. mailto:[email protected] 5. mailto:[email protected] 6. mailto:[email protected] 7. mailto:[email protected] 8. mailto:[email protected] 9. mailto:[email protected] 10. mailto:[email protected] 11. mailto:[email protected] 12. mailto:[email protected] 13. mailto:[email protected] 14. mailto:[email protected] 15. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 16. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 17. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 18. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 19. mailto:[email protected] 20. mailto:[email protected] 21. mailto:[email protected] 22. mailto:[email protected] 23. mailto:[email protected] 24. mailto:[email protected] 25. mailto:[email protected] 26. mailto:[email protected] 27. mailto:[email protected] 28. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 29. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 30. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 31. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 32. mailto:[email protected] 33. mailto:[email protected] 34. mailto:[email protected] 35. mailto:[email protected] 36. mailto:[email protected] 37. mailto:[email protected] 38. mailto:[email protected] 39. mailto:[email protected] 40. mailto:[email protected] 41. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 42. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e= 43. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=X_E9qe6KNOpr_sRiQ6zsaHsPstT_yjMaanMZxBFAQwE&e= 44. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.avast.com_antivirus&d=DwIFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvxMmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E&m=va9jg1Azf3ZY2_v_OLLf90WqvdcSST5ETqw37szHTrE&s=RFJHW6YQ4AEqgAksJ9TY2n3-zFA-s1xGbPPxmE9imC4&e=
