Am 06.03.2019 um 13:59 schrieb Ron Andrico <[email protected]>:
Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and
Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages. Nevertheless,
music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the
thumb
out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography. I
still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using
thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical
precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments.
Isn't
it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus
lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual
historical examples?
__________________________________________________________________
From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on
behalf
of Martin Shepherd <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
To: Lute List
Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Dear All,
Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being
the
best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside
easier. I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position
during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index
alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do
it all
the time.
The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting
indication of this. In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML
ff.14v-15r)
all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a
running
passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which
have no
double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played
thumb-index. Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the
speed
of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the
middle-index alternation returns. Then a fast cadential formula
(end
of
system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index.
I'm sure there are many other examples like this. Nigel North's
recent
talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH
fingerings.
Martin
On 06/03/2019 08:06, [email protected] wrote:
Sorry: 'original', naturally!
Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
Originalnachricht
Von: [email protected]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49
An: Lute net
Antwort an: [email protected]
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of
Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember
if ye
text englished contains the passage...
Best
Joachim
Originalnachricht
Von: Alain Veylit
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32
Antwort an: [email protected]
Cc: Lute net
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
Jurgen,
It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I
saw
it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the
Varietie of Lute Lessons?
Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
Alain
On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made
that suggestion.
Thanks,
jurgen
----------------------------------
"There is a voice that doesn't use words. Listen."
JalÄl ad-DÄ«n Muhammad Rumi
â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ Original Message â€â€â€â€â€â€â€.
On Tuesday, March 5, 2019 10:40 AM, Alain Veylit
<[email protected]> wrote:
That's odd because I remember O'Dette's advice for the left-hand
pinky:
plant it vertically on the string instead of laying it flat - which
requires more effort. That should mean his left-hand little finger
can
bend... Not a conclusive proof for the right hand little finger but
...
For Renaissance lute, if I am not mistaken, the right-hand little
finger
is supposed to be parallel to the sound board, just lightly
brushing on
it, and it should remain extended.
Anybody with a good explanation as to how additional basses would
alter
the right hand position? If I recall, Besard still argued for a
mixed
technique, thumb-under for fast runs and thumb over for whatever
else
(chords). I think it is logical that increasing dedication of the
thumb
to the bass strings does account for the shift in right-hand
position,
and when you think about it, it is not a small revolution in music
history...
On 3/4/19 7:12 PM, Richard Brook wrote:
Heard via the late great Pat OBrien Paul O'Dette couldn't bend
that finger down by itself. Though I think Pat said in my case the
fault was in my head, not in the stars.
D ick Brook
On Mar 4, 2019, at 6:58 PM, Alain Veylit
[email protected] wrote:
Good one Rainer - Anybody remembers the title of that American
series from the 60s-70s where aliens live among us in disguise,
and the
only sure way to identify them is that they cannot bend their little
finger?
Worth mentioning also about right-hand technique, Jimmy Hendrix
playing with his teeth - frustrated leftie, you think?
On 3/4/19 12:19 PM, Rainer wrote:
On 04.03.2019 17:11, Alain Veylit wrote:
And then, there is Django Reinhardt... one big exception to the
rules of guitar playing. Experimenting with various techniques has
probably always been a popular habit among musicians, whether by
choice
or force.
And Aguado used the 4th finger of the right hand. Perhaps he was
an alien :)
Rainer
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