Although it is difficult to find tease out the melodic line, the Je ne
fay duet in Spinacino is indeed based upon the chanson, which has been
securely attributed to Giles Mureau by Peter Woetmann Christophersen,
who has edited the complete works of Mureau.
The Spinacino duets can be problematic if one approaches tablature as a
sacred relic rather than a general outline that needs a bit of polish.
Again, I say that it is an interpretive error to consider (especially
early) lute tablatures to be anything other than a reservoir of
information. It is up to the informed musician to turn it into music,
and it always has been thus.
RA
__________________________________________________________________
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Frank A. Gerbode,
M.D. <sa...@gerbode.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 10:18 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro
Thanks, Denys. Very helpful and thoughtful comments. There are a
handful of instances I have encountered in v.1 of Spinacino where
corrections were written in, possibly by Petrucci himself. In any
case,
these appear to be "correct" corrections. To me, it is odd that there
are relatively few errors in the solo works and what appear to be so
many in the duet pieces. Your suggestion about intabulating the vocal
models is a good one. The vocal models are probably from Odhecaton
(also
a Petrucci publication), so that should not be so hard.
BTW, does anyone know whether the "Je ne fay" in Spinacino is the same
as "Je ne fay plus" in Odhecaton? And is the composer Antoine Busnois,
Giles Mureau, or Anonymous? The altus part in Odhecaton is labeled "si
placet", which I think means it is optional, rather than signifying a
composer name.
--Sarge
On 6/20/2020 13:41, denyssteph...@sky.com wrote:
> Hi Frank,
> I haven't tried reconstructing the Spinacino duets, but I have
reconstructed intabulations from the Thibault manuscript and studied
the Dalza print in detail. The first thing to remember about both
Spinacino and Dalza is the presence of a considerable number of
printing errors. Both Martin Shepherd and I have written about that in
the past, looking at the issue of which discordant sounds are
intentional and which are typographic mistakes. There isn't an easy
answer, but it's an issue that needs to be considered when creating an
edition of music from those prints. If you look carefully you can spot
manuscript corrections to some of the errors in both the Spinacino and
Dalza prints. Martin and I compared all three surviving copies of the
Dalza print which showed that the corrections were made in Petrucci's
workshop and not by a subsequent owner. For those interested, there are
lists of the early corrections in Stanley Boorman's superb Catalogue
Raisonne of Petrucci's work. !
The curious thing in Dalza is that many glaringly obvious typographic
errors were not corrected, which suggests that the same may be true in
the Spinacino print. When working on an intabulation of a vocal
composition it always makes sense to study the original if it's
available, and ideally make your own lute intabulation from it. The
points of coincidence and diversion from the original in an early
intabulation can then be seen. We don't of course know if we are
looking at the same reading of the original vocal piece that the early
intabulator had (in this case Spinacino), but it does help a lot in
getting a feel for how close the intabulation is to the original. When
you do this It sometimes becomes easier to spot where mistakes were
made in the intabulation. I appreciate it's a lot of work to go through
this process, but it does give a much clearer idea of what the
intabulator was doing. It's also helpful to find, if available,
examples of what other modern musicians hav!
e done with the same pieces. I have the feeling that all or mo!
st of the Spinacino duets are included on Karl-Ernst Shroder &
Crawford Young's wonderful album 'Amours amours amours.' I don't
remember hearing any extreme dissonances on that album. I imagine that
they would have made their own performing editions from the print in
preparation for the recording.
> Hope this helps.
> Best wishes,
> Denys
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
<lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Frank A. Gerbode,
M.D.
> Sent: 20 June 2020 20:29
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: A strange "error" in Maestro
>
> I am working on an edition of Spinacino v.1 (1507) and have run
across
> these 2 extremely dissonant duets.
> I am not personally a big fan of gratuitous dissonance (diabolus
in
> musica). Dissonance that serves a purpose, as in Dowland, yes.
> Dissonance as a passing note, yes. Dissonance as a cadential
> suspension, yes. But minor second intervals on downbeats, not so
much.
> I would like to "correct" these duet parts so they harmonize
instead
> of "cacophonizing" with each other, but have no idea where to
begin.
> Has anyone tried to do this? If I can't find a harmonious
solution, I
> will just leave the duets as is, though I hate to punt like that,
> because who will want to play them as written (except maybe
Schräder,
> and he is no longer with us)?
> --Sarge
>
> On 10/14/2019 23:48, Alain Veylit wrote:
>
> I cannot read this thread without thinking about Spinacino's
duets,
> particularly the setting of Ghiselin's Jolis amours: are the
notes
> wrong or is it our ears? Yet, I had found a very convincing
rendition
> of that duet a while ago on the Net, played as printed 500 years
ago
> (already!) -- I believe Karl-Ernst SchrÃÆ Â¶der was on one of the
2 lutes
> -- Helas, I can no longer find that particular recording on the
> Internet any longer. One trick they used to make the half-tone
clashes
> sound better was to play the piece very fast. It works.
>
> Spinacino's "J'ay pris amours" is still there on YouTube but it
is less
> striking as an example of utter dissonance to modern ears - see
> [1][1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljcq1ETbXkI
>
>
>
> --
> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net)
> 11132 Dell Ave
> Forestville, CA 95436-9491
> Home phone: 707-820-1759
> Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net
> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljcq1ETbXkI
> 2. [2]mailto:sa...@gerbode.net
> 3. [3]http://www.gerbode.net/
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
[4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
--
Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. (sa...@gerbode.net)
11132 Dell Ave
Forestville, CA 95436-9491
Home phone: 707-820-1759
Website: [5]http://www.gerbode.net
"The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got."
Virus-free. [6]www.avast.com
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