OK, Hari --- I will (try) to bite --- Let's see if I can only deal with what you specifically asked of me --
On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 6:18 PM hari kumar <[email protected]> wrote: > > > The question for me - is how does that appreciation - retrospectively - of > a 'historically premature' rising - change what Marxists *should have done* > in > a) 1917; and then > b) Between say, 1921-1935; and then finally > c) in 1940. > ME: L:et me remind everyone that Marx in the CIVIL WAR IN FRANCE made it clear he believed the Communards made a serious mistake in attempting to build -- in effect -- socialism in one city --- but he praised them to the hills as STORMERS OF HEAVEN'S GATE --- in effect he was arguing with himself --- the theorist in Marx wanted to be sure the time and forces were "right" but the revolutionary wanted to take the chance .... > > HARI: > And I have seen very mixed signals indeed about (c) from Michael M who in > his latest message says something like thank goodness the Soviets took on > Hitler; and yet earlier at several junctures - he castigates the Soviets > for moving what they saw as becoming the Front towards the West by indeed, > partitioning Poland. > ME: Now I'm the one getting dementia --- I may have castigated the Soviets for massacring the Polish Officer Corps at Katyn but every one of their "steps" to move the front towards the west gave them some (though not much) time to resist the Nazi invasion --- so I'm not sure how my "castigation" showed up in previous writings ---- maybe I was too flip and criticized the Soviets for doing what I now believe (on reflection) was almost forced on them. I have always believed that the Nazi-Soviet Pact was a necessity once the west had so thoroughly betrayed Czechoslovakia --- > So Michael - what would you do - let us use the present time to frame the > feeling - As the British led mission by one "Admiral Reginald > Plunkett-Ernie-Erle-Drax" takes the slow boat to "negotiate" an Allied > Front against Hitler? > http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/WBBJVSNaziPact.htm > <http://ml-review.ca/aml/AllianceIssues/WBBJVSNaziPact.htm> > > There is a very strong tendency to do historical after the day-is-done > quarter-backing. > I mean why do we stop with 1917? In for a penny in for a pound.... > I really, really think that you should ask - Should we wise 2024 Marxists > have counselled the Third Estate not to lose their heads (hah) and start > the French Revolution? > > History's events do have lessons for us for sure. And we may indeed repeat > the historical cycle (how many years did it take for capitalism to overcome > feudal patterns of society?) until "we" (some peoples somewhere) get it > right. > > Of course I think you and all here will agree, and I do too - that all > Marxists must do a fair amount of historical analysis. But to deny making > decisions at the sharp end of history, even when they may be shown to have > been at times weakened by subsequent events - is not sensible in my view. I > think making easy retrospective judgements, "Ah well - they should have > waited 150 years" - is clearly sophistry. > ME: I am mostly an observer of these discussions ---- as always when asked what "one" would have done in those circumstances, one certainly hopes one would have done the "correct" thing --- For example -- SOME of the Old Bolsheviks REFUSED to falsely confess and therefore support Stalin's crimes ---- we honor them more than those who grovelled and proclaimed that they wanted to "CONFESS MY CRIMES" even though, of course, they had no crimes to confess --- that Stalin was the criminal. One of my heroes is the economist Preobrazhensky -- another is General Tukachevsky .... > > Maybe that is not what you are suggesting, but I have seen this often and > on this list. > So what would you have done? And what would Michael have done? > > ME: admittedly a tough question --- I have read a bit of E.H. Carr on the early years of the Revolution and there were people fighting for a more democratic approach to governing --- I hope I would have been with them .... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#29557): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/29557 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/105034294/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/8674936/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
