On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 08:05 AM, Michael Karadjis wrote: > > No, quite right, it isn't. So, in that sense, let's say the parallel I was > making to Cuba and the missile crisis etc was not entirely accurate. > However, I also made a comparison to a hypothetical case of France trying > to reinvade Algeria and annex part of its coastline. And I think that's > where we disagree. For you, the "proxyists" and "self-determinationists" > and everyone else are equally non-Marxist because they are not discussing > differences in the mode of production. In one respect I can say that I > disagree, but can respect the consistency of your approach. The problem I > have though is, how consistent is it? In theory, it abolishes the right of > self-determination in every case where both sides are capitalist. But I > doubt that is your absolute opinion. What would you say about my Algeria > hypothetical? In 2003, was the mode of production different in the US and > Iraq? And so on. >
> > > MK-- You're not alone in wondering how consistent I am. I wonder about that also. First and foremost, my post was a response to Julian's assertion that his video was, and almost, the sole "Marxist analysis" of the Ukraine conflict when in fact there's nothing Marxist about it all. He argues conspiracy, ideology, geopolitical elements but produces zero arguments based on elements essential to Marxist analysis Secondly, indeed an argument that is based on geopolitics. the prospects for "multipolariity", etc without linking those to the actions of classing, ruling and ruled, but in defense of Ukraine is equally non-Marxist. In theory, it abolishes the right of self-determination in every case where both sides are capitalist. More precisely it abolishes the separation of the right of self determination from the underlying class relations, the social content, that manifests itself, appears at a particular moment to be a "struggle for self-determination." Just as uneven and combined development determined that a successful "liberal democratic revolution" was/is impossible in the "less developed" nations, it determines that a) the right of self-determination is the echo of an era that has been eclipsed b) the attempts to maintain the classification of the underlying social struggle as one of self-determination must include a struggle against the development of independent working class program and action; a struggle against revolution. Now in Bolivia (1954), Algeria, Angola, Mozambique, Viet Nam (1945, 1954, 1975), China (1949) Chile (1973), Cuba (1959), the success of self-determination (the "democratic" moment) depended upon how deeply the revolution progressed and the social basis of production was transformed--and it took the remaining force of the Russian Revolution to effect those transformations. And where the revolution was interrupted- self-determination has been quickly absorbed and accommodated by capitalist reaction. In 2003, was the mode of production different in the US and Iraq? No, and for precisely that reason we have to find the roots of the conflict in the mechanisms of capitalist accumulation and through that find and develop a program, a path to independent, class based action. Otherwise we wind up with another bit of inconsistency--condemning Hussein the year, month, week, day before the attacks of 1991 or 2003, but defending the regime the day after as an expression of self-determination. If however we trace 2003 to the decline in oil prices and profits in 2002, the overproduction of oil, the repeated attempts to drive Iraqi oil production off the market, we can oppose the imperial adventure without having to defend the existing regime. We always oppose imperial expansion, but we don't have to endorse an Assad, or Khamenei, a Taliban, a Zelensky as "progressive." Either there is an independent class-conscious element to be cultivated likewise independently and consciously or we find ourselves in the trick bag of urging one section of capitalists to finance, arm, conduct a war that takes its ultimate toll on the prospects for revolution. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#34570): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/34570 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/110506717/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [[email protected]] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
