let me ask you a question, as a veteran and apparently one of vietnam. prisoners at the hanoi hilton all agreed that a man could be made to sign or so anything as a result of torture and every man is eventually broken. there was, however, a dispute as to how to treat this recognition. on the one side, stockdale insisted that even though you knew you were going to be broken, you must resist for as long as you possibly could. kittinger argued that as resistance is futile, save yourself the waste of energy and physical and mental damage from the torture and sign whatever they wanted you to sign right away. as stockdale was the senior officer (although if there was recognition of coolness points, kittinger would certainly have been head man), his way became policy
i personally agree strongly with kittinger on this and would like to know what your view is regarding which method is correct On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 11:47 PM, G Mann <g2ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > "Military Intelligence" ;)) > > But... hey.. if you are on the ground.. you just had a multimillion dollar > fighter shot from under you, took a Martin Baker rocket assist ejection > seat ride through the canopy, likely broke your arms or legs.. maybe your > back.. and fell a few thousand feet in to hostile indian country...where > you have just pickled off a load of 500 lb bombs...... short of a company > of Marines standing ready as a personal honor guard.. you could never have > a big enough gun... so in the words of Hillary "Neva Bin Laid" Clinton... > "what difference does it make"... > > There was some speculation that it was a military issue form of cyanide > pill.. you fire 5 rounds to attract attention and die in the resultant > attack.... speculative.. of course.. after a cold beverage... > I recall ammo was plentiful and the beverage cans never left alive... > > Grant... > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 7:47 PM, Gary Hurst <jabbahur...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > he made claim that he was issued a small frame shot barrel revolver. > from > > his description it would be a J frame with a 2" or shorter barrel. maybe > > he was issued a 4 inch barrel K frame. so we are talking about different > > guns > > > > as for shooting your way out surrounded by your highly armed enemy, i > don't > > think it's going to matter a while hill of beans whether you are toting a > > 1911 or a k frame revolver. neither will get you out and both leave you > > relatively unarmed > > > > however, if you were telling me we were going to have a gun fight and > > offered for me to "choose my weapon" i'd pick the 1911 and let you have > the > > revolver every time. i am unclear on why the air force chose to issue > > revolvers as well > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:39 PM, G Mann <g2ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > We may be talking apples and oranges.. or we may be talking only > apples.. > > > Apparently.. crew issue sidearms were at the discretion of the armory > at > > > the departing base. Some flight crews were issued S & W, K frame/4 > inch > > > barrel/6 round revolvers.. which was authorized issue. Others had > access > > > to the more desired Colt 1911 which were, "sometimes available"... > Other > > > crews were permitted to arm themselves with personally owned weapons.. > at > > > the discretion of the commanding officer.. most likely.. > > > > > > Rank, after all.. has it's privilege, and Flight Officers did what they > > > did. In Wilton's case.. what ever happened happened.. I recall being > > > issued the standard S&W K frame.. and feeling seriously "unarmed" for > the > > > theater of operation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 7:18 PM, Gary Hurst <jabbahur...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > that is a different gun than wilton describes he was issued. are you > > > > saying he is confused or are you discussing a completely different > > > subject > > > > than i am? or am i confused at to wilton's claims? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 10:13 PM, G Mann <g2ma...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-271423.html > > > > > > > > > > K frame.. 4 inch barrel... early issue aluminum cylinders were > drawn > > > back > > > > > due to issues.. > > > > > 6 round cylinders... very little firepower when you are hanging > from > > > > shroud > > > > > lines after punching out from a SAM damaged F4 and your LZ is > > populated > > > > > with black pajamas and AK's and SKS's with bayonets. > > > > > > > > > > Jolly Green.. where are you? > > > > > > > > > > Grant... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 6:13 PM, Gary Hurst <jabbahur...@gmail.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > says 1950 on this ladysize. i don't think there are any ladysize > > > with > > > > 6 > > > > > > shots > > > > > > > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_36 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 9:03 PM, G Mann <g2ma...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Back in the day.. circa.. 1967.. Vietnam... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Gary Hurst < > > jabbahur...@gmail.com> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > by "back in the day", you are talking about 18 hundred and > > what? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the gun wilton describes having been issued should have had 5 > > > > > bullets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > when do you fancy the lady sized was first made? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:37 PM, G Mann <g2ma...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quite correct... however.. back in the day... [OK.. time > > flys] > > > G > > > > I > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > was 6 round, 4 inch barrel. > > > > > > > > > The 5 shot ladies size revolvers had not been produced .. > > yet.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now.. with the new military rules of engagement.. I suppose > > the > > > > > Nuke > > > > > > > > > Command officers are sent out with a fresh tube of lipstick > > and > > > > one > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > butt > > > > > > > > > lube.. in case they are captured.. wrapped in a white flag. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant.. > > > > > > > > > Late for my Kum byyy Yaaah drum cricle.. gotta run... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 5:24 PM, Gary Hurst < > > > > jabbahur...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the small framed short barreled ones are 5 shots > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 8:20 PM, G Mann < > g2ma...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Against my desire to remain silent.. I feel the need to > > > weigh > > > > > in > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > discussion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To wit: More than once, within the past decade, the US > > > > Supreme > > > > > > > Court > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > ruled that it is NOT a duty of a policeman/woman to > > protect > > > > > > > citizens. > > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > only duty a policeman has is to protect himself. As > > > stunning > > > > > as > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > > be... it is the foundational basis for police to be > > armed.. > > > > to > > > > > > > > protect > > > > > > > > > > > themselves, ONLY. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We, the citizen, are on our own. [Sorry Andrew, bad > > news, > > > I > > > > > > know]. > > > > > > > > > > Police > > > > > > > > > > > do not "stop crime". They "report crime". Then consume > > > great > > > > > > > amounts > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > time and money chasing those who do crime... sort of.. > to > > > > > gather > > > > > > > > > evidence > > > > > > > > > > > which may or may not meet the burden of proof at trial > to > > > > > prove a > > > > > > > > crime > > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > committed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we indeed had a "war on crime" as we are told we > do.. > > > the > > > > > body > > > > > > > > count > > > > > > > > > > > would be much higher... and police officers would be > much > > > > > better > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > weapons > > > > > > > > > > > handling. Some are.. many are not, as stated here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Grant... > > > > > > > > > > > Who was always amazed at the military who gave command > > > pilots > > > > > > nukes > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > armed them with 6 shot, short barrel .38 revolvers for > > > > personal > > > > > > > > > > protection > > > > > > > > > > > when they ejected over hostile country... > > > > > > > > > > > and always believed the crash axe was a better > choice... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2013 at 12:10 PM, Scott Ritchey < > > > > > > > ritche...@nc.rr.com> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of this serves to highlight the wide-spread > > > > > > misunderstanding > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > real > > > > > > > > > > > > nature of most police work, a misunderstanding > largely > > > > > fostered > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > entertainment media. There are some well-trained and > > > > highly > > > > > > > > > competent > > > > > > > > > > > > tactical police units but most police work is > > > > administrative > > > > > > > > > > information > > > > > > > > > > > > processing and a systematic "showing of the flag." > > Not a > > > > > > > > criticism, > > > > > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > > > > > > just how it works. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One common myth worth mentioning is the one that says > > > it's > > > > > > > > dangerous > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > well-trained, law-abiding civilians to be armed but > > armed > > > > > > police > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > safe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com > ] > > On > > > > > > Behalf > > > > > > > Of > > > > > > > > > > clay > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2013 3:49 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > To: Mercedes Discussion List > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MBZ] buymbparts is dead drunk and > > rattling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Local cop is in trouble because the hooker he was > > chasing > > > > > after > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > stop. She spun around, he could not tell what was > > going > > > > on, > > > > > so > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > drew > > > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > > service weapon. While it exited his holster, it went > > off > > > > and > > > > > > > shot > > > > > > > > > her > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > the leg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > He needs some gun control > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > clay > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To search list archives > > http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To search list archives > http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > *reliable vendor of superior parts for mercedes and other > > > > > european > > > > > > > cars > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > *www.BuyEUROparts.com* > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > http://www.okiebenz.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 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