Level playing field of opportunity? Isn't college a little late to be starting on the level playing field? Isn't that how we justify socialist pre college education? And what has that gotten us with our socialist pre college education? A piss poor educational system is what it has gotten us. However, that rationale is what drives our insistence on Socialist pre-college education.
Now your argument is that in order to start out on a level playing field we need to extend that socialist pre college education into the College age years. When does the beginning end? When do we start taking responsibility for ourselves and stop expecting the government to put us in the position that we believe we deserve? Now, I know this is a personal subject for you, and I don't mean to downplay your grievances. The fact is though, anyone (sadly enough) who wants to go to school, can go to school today. I'm from a dirt poor farm family. No way in a million years could my parents afford to send me to school. My undergrad was paid with by pell grants (I know, call me a hypocrite), and in order to get into law school I had to make the decision of going into deep debt. I didn't have to (and probably shouldn't have in hind sight), but I decided an education in law is what I wanted, and the only way to do it was to go deep in debt. Now I'll spend the rest of my life paying off that debt, but having a steady income was more important to me, so I took the plunge. If going through undergrad would have meant going even deeper in debt, I probably would have done it. I took the opportunities that were available to me though (taking the pell grants I mean), I'm not that much of an idealist. I'm not a 100% pure capitalist. I do think there needs to be checks on it. But most of the time, the checks that I believe are appropriate are the ones that help Capitalism work the way we believe it should. Your cell phone example is a perfect example. We want as many competitors in the cell phone business as possible, for the sole purpose of creating competition and thus bringing about the best technology. That is the very essence of capitalism. So where we check capitalism is in the very place that capitalism works against itself and begins to abandon its ideals. Socializing medicine and education is a step in the wrong direction. Education is already too socialized. Medicine is getting there. I am not espousing a complete privatization of education, so don't get me wrong there. However, no child left behind isn't working for us either. No child left behind is the perfect example of how socialist education works. So, I essentially agree with you that everyone should get an equal opportunity. I'm all about equal opportunities. I am not about equality of results though. I think that what your aiming at is more equality of results, and less equality of opportunity. If you can come up with an idea that looks more like equality of opportunity then I'm on board. However, only in so far as that promotes the principles of free market capitalism. On Jan 21, 6:00 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Straw man alert, my friend. > I think the problem with the world is government in the wrong place. > > Let government mind three things: > > Preserve the domestic tranquility. > > Guard from foreign threat. > > Establish a level playing field of opportunity. > > The third is as important as the first two. Do you disregard the importance > of the trustbusters of the early twentieth century? The breakup of Standard > Oil? Deregulation of the telecom industry in innovation of cellular service > (which we are still 20 years behind Europe and the Far East...my little > brother's phone from Japan is WAY cooler than mine). > > The ability to get a college degree should not be dependent on the wealth of > the parents. That's simply unfair. I know, I know, call me a bleeding heart > liberal. I need a little of that on here to counter balance Orn portraying > me as the jackbooted thug of the right wing. It's hard to be an issues based > free thinking independent voter. The lock stepping partisan folks always > assume you're with the other team... big wink to the both of you. ;) > > Back to the topic at hand. If I maintain a 3.5 GPA and meet my attendance > requirement and score a 1280 on the SAT, how is American Society made better > by my not being able to attend college due to not being able to afford it? > Before you tell me that doesn't happen, that's exactly my story, so there's > the context of my question. Education and Healthcare are the two biggest > obstacles to advancement for the poor...they are a roadblock to class > transcendence. > > Now, you see nothing wrong with the fire truck manufacturer being paid by > tax dollars, nor the police car manufacturer, nor the military arms > manufacturer being paid for by tax dollars, so the only delineating factor > here is the philosophy of what's for free. I'm not suggesting anyone at all > get a free ride through life. I'm suggesting that everyone get to start at > the same starting line at the beginning of the race. Everyone deserves the > opportunity to have a quality education, based on their performance in > primary and secondary school, and everyone deserves to have rudimentary > healthcare. Free breast jobs? Negative. Maintenance medication for > fundamental quality of life? Most definitely. > > P.S. I'm in favor of scrapping the entire welfare program in exchange for a > government works program, just so you know. Don't confuse my socialist ideas > with gimme gimme handouts. I'm closer to Ted Nugent than Lenin. > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 7:45 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > So Chris, your saying the problem with the world isn't too much > > government but too little government? I'd have to disagree with you > > there. > > > I think the flaw in your reasoning is that you assume if something > > exists everyone is entitled to it. Brain, heart, and lung transplants > > may either be possible, or in the future possible, but they are modern > > marvels. No one is entitled to these things. The procedures take a > > lot of money, time, and expenses to research and implement. People > > put their heart and soul into such ventures because they believe that > > it will mean a big pay check in their futures. Not everyone is going > > to be able to afford a heart transplant. The most obvious reason is > > not everyone can afford one. Not to mention their aren't enough spare > > hearts lying around. > > > The countries who have tried to implement socialism have ended up with > > countries that cannot keep up with those who have not. The only > > reason that medicine had continued to advance in today's modern > > society is because America is still relatively capitalistic. We will > > pay the big bucks for the research and procedures and so people still > > keep working to make it happen. But if we adopt medical care like > > Canada's and England's, I think you can kiss credible medical research > > goodbye. > > > And Education in our society is already socialist. How are you going > > to make it more Socialist? My contention is that the problem with our > > education today is precisely because its Socialist. If we privatized > > education, made the institutions compete, made the teachers compete, > > then our educational system would be much more competitive. > > > On Jan 21, 2:25 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 4:17 PM, chazwin <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Jan 20, 7:16 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I've always had trouble with "capitalism" - the word hardly appears > > in > > > > > Marx and I've never seen any satisfactory definitions of it as a > > > > > phenomena. > > > > > As a phenomenon it is highly misunderstood and applied for dubious > > > > political purposes. On another Newsgroup I was shocked to see this > > > > statement in response to my accusation that the writer had no idea > > > > what socialism was except as a thing to be destroyed to protect us all > > > > from evil. > > > > "I take socialism to be the opposite of capitalism. Capitalism is a > > > > social system based on respect for individual liberty. Socialism is a > > > > social system based on lack of respect for individual liberty. " > > > > (I shit you not!) > > > > This is unbelievable that anyone could have such a stilted view point. > > > > Capitalism is not a social system, but a description of an economic > > > > process. > > > > It all started when we were taught about the United Soviet SOCIALIST > > > Republic, AKA The Dirty Commies... ;) > > > > As someone who's lived both here, and in many Socialist countries, I > > think > > > we could use a healthy dash of Socialism at home, particularly in the > > areas > > > of Education and Healthcare. > > > > > Performance targets? Tracking? Key Skills? Transferable Skills? CPD? > > > > Evidence based performance related target? BS? Mangement Speak? > > > > I believe I can create some effective 3-6 month trending reports which > > will > > > help visualize the KPI in question. The data is indisputable. Metrics > > don't > > > lie. > > > > Of course, the people presenting them do... > > > > > People still > > > > > managing express concerns that honesty is long gone, but do this > > > > > quietly because they fear talking of it is career suicide. I wonder > > > > > if we have confused "capitalism" with some desire to be free of > > power- > > > > > (See above!) > > > > > > freaks and somehow let it into our lives in ways we should have > > > > > resisted? Everyone is admitting in private (questionnaires etc.) > > that > > > > > they are routinely lying - I actually find some very confused people > > > > > in my practical examinations of organisations - and would like to > > > > > establish why I feel this is worse now than ever before in my life. > > I > > > > > got used to lies as a cop, but this current stuff is something else, > > > > > more like a disease. > > > > > It's pretty obvious that Enron was the key model underlying > > > > > "capitalist" activity. In a similar sense Baby P is probably not an > > > > > exception but the rule. Lying connects activity in public and > > private > > > > > sectors, along with brazen denials that anything is going wrong. Our > > > > > bwankers have clearly been sitting on top of one hell of a barrel of > > > > > stealing that dwarfs Enron. > > > > > I haven't heard the world stop as all this money drops from sight > > > > > under the magician's cape. I wonder if we could start again without > > > > > these parasites? > > > > > Yes there is a place called Utopia. Get your one way tickets! --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
