Working as a scientist there are many systems I can rely on and a range of critical tests I can do to ensure I have the truth, even if I have to state this in probabilities. I am a believer in such 'rigour' and its regular testing against all that is known - this makes me a believer in reliableism, a belief I also take to involve doubt and some counterexamples. There are forms of belief I find very difficult to accept - these usually involve denial of facts in argument and masses of counterexamples that need to be hidden. One can announce that the world began in 4004BC and soon have to say this was complete with memories and fossil record - meaning it could have been a minute ago and so on. Such stuff remains a possibility, yet is generally unhelpful. 'I couldn't have killed the children judge, because the world only started a minute ago. I contend it is just a memory and a false one at that' - etc. ad nauseum. Sooner or later we confront the other, including unacceptable views - but not many views have to be unacceptable in a system of reason and many apparently different views are not so different if reasonable discussion is possible. This said, I believe we are tolerating too much "evil" in the world, confusing our arguments with a need for decent action on a tolerant consensus to remove iniquities based on reasonable faith that they are wrong rather than certainty.
On 21 May, 05:19, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > On May 21, 4:41 am, omprem <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Your saying so doesn't make it so. > > > As stated previously, I can understand your sudden feeling of > > vulnerability at having to face the facts of your belief system being > > grounded entirely on factual and/or logical error and being unable to > > refute/justify the errors I point out. But I can help you through > > this crises of faith you are having in the religion of atheism. > > Omprem, YOU need to understand : > > ( 1 ) Atheists do not have a defined, uniformly subscribed belief > system. They just DO NOT BELIEVE in any DEITY, whatsoever. > > Their supposed belief system you are attacking just does not > exist. In other words, you are fighting an imaginary " belief > system." > > ( 2 ) No one has asked for your help. So, why are you intruding upon > other people's peace ? > > You seem to be an intelligent guy. But, can you read the message ? > > > On May 20, 5:33 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Your rhetoric is pure sophistry aimed to irritate and demean. I am > > > herewith asking the powers that be on this forum to ban you from > > > participation with and the company of those who have proven themselves > > > time and again to be rational, even-handed, fair and at times even > > > logical. > > > > On May 20, 5:45 am, omprem <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Pointing out that all atheist statements about atheism and indeed > > > > about religion are are based on logical and/or > > > > factual error is part of rational discourse. I understand why > > > > atheists might be upset and feel insulted or that they are being > > > > 'talked down to' because if they are suddenly vulnerable when faced > > > > the the factual and logical falseness of their belief system and being > > > > vulnerable they react by striking out. But attacking the messenger > > > > doesn't change the truth of the message and the the attack tends to > > > > prove lack of substance behind atheism. > > > > > On May 19, 1:58 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Can you respond to anyone here without being insulting and talking > > > > > down to people? > > > > > > On May 18, 2:53 pm, omprem <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I, of course, refer to all atheists. All their statements about > > > > > > atheism and indeed about religion are are based on logical and/or > > > > > > factual error. > > > > > > > On May 18, 3:59 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't know what atheists your speaking of, but they are not the > > > > > > > ones > > > > > > > I know and respect. > > > > > > > > On May 18, 9:19 am, omprem <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Atheists claim to operate in a world of reason and logic but do > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > poorly. Because they insist on living in a relative world > > > > > > > > logical > > > > > > > > reasoning can be applied to them because logical reasoning only > > > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > in a relative world.. > > > > > > > > > Let's begin by looking at their addiction to sense impression. > > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > believe those sense impressions deliver a true version of > > > > > > > > reality but > > > > > > > > never once wonder how those senses which are subject to > > > > > > > > failure, to > > > > > > > > be being interpreted according to the biases of the atheist, and > > > > > > > > having limits in what they are able to sense are able to present > > > > > > > > reality at all. Atheists mistakenly believe that the limit of > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > they are able to perceive is the limit of what is. > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 11:11 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Man that's quite the claim to make. Now I'd like to see you > > > > > > > > > back that > > > > > > > > > one up without recourse to logical reasoning. > > > > > > > > > > On 18 May, 13:41, omprem <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On May 18, 7:53 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bah Slip you are a one huh. > > > > > > > > > > > > Come now there are no sheep here, free thinkers all, > > > > > > > > > > > OMPREM: When it comes to atheists they are neither free > > > > > > > > > > nor do they > > > > > > > > > > think. > > > > > > > > > > > Atheists are not free because they are addicted to sense > > > > > > > > > > impression > > > > > > > > > > and the pleasures that can be derived therefrom; because > > > > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > > > addicted to the appearance of thought in their minds > > > > > > > > > > apparently > > > > > > > > > > mistakenly believing that because they can ideate something > > > > > > > > > > it must > > > > > > > > > > therefore be true; and because they preoccupied with > > > > > > > > > > aggrandizing > > > > > > > > > > their mistaken notion of have being an individuated ego. > > > > > > > > > > Atheists > > > > > > > > > > cannot think because they are addicted to their own bias > > > > > > > > > > and what > > > > > > > > > > passes for thought for them is merely attempts to prop up > > > > > > > > > > and project > > > > > > > > > > their bias. Every statement of atheism rests on a shaky > > > > > > > > > > foundation of > > > > > > > > > > logical and factual error. > > > > > > > > > > > and you know > > > > > > > > > > > > that. As to my post, well I saw that nobody had yet made > > > > > > > > > > > a go of the > > > > > > > > > > > thread, and lacking any other data I went with the tilte > > > > > > > > > > > and so posted > > > > > > > > > > > in that vein. > > > > > > > > > > > > We can all sit there and moan about the qaulity of the > > > > > > > > > > > thread or the > > > > > > > > > > > lack of direction from the OP, or we can choose to try > > > > > > > > > > > and make > > > > > > > > > > > something of it. Ironic isn't it how you say that you > > > > > > > > > > > are not a > > > > > > > > > > > lemming and yet ask for direction in the same post! > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18 May, 04:18, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had posted early on as to the vagueness of the > > > > > > > > > > > > initial thread, I see > > > > > > > > > > > > it has been removed. The OP was also initially > > > > > > > > > > > > responded to very > > > > > > > > > > > > appropriately by Ian. The subject has still yet to be > > > > > > > > > > > > revealed. I'm > > > > > > > > > > > > not a lemming that needs to follow suit with those who > > > > > > > > > > > > think the OP is > > > > > > > > > > > > asking for book suggestions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 17, 10:00 pm, Chris Jenkins > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What were your suggestions, Slip? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Slip Disc > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was thinking more like yada yada one track mind, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ID. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 17, 9:04 pm, iam deheretic > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have read or rather examined someof your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > titles,, for me they fall > > > > > > > > > > > > > > under > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the catagory of yaddah yaddah gobblegook. so I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > never finished reading > > > > > > > > > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 4:13 PM, omprem > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation Bibliography > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meditation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Meditation and Mantras. Swami Vishnu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Devananda, Om Lotus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Publishing > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Company, 243 W 24 St., New York, New York, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10011. ISBN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 0.931546.01.X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To order: Sivananda Ashram Yoga Camp, Val > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Morin, Quebec, J0T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2R0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > phone: 1-800-263-YOGA (9642) or e-mail: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Journey of Awakening: A Meditator’s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guidebook. Ram Dass, Bantam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Age > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Books, 1540 Broadway,New York, New York, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10036. ISBN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 0-553-28572-6 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Practical Mysticism. Evelyn Underhill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ariel Press, 205-289 S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Main St. Alpharetta, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GA 30201, USA (1-800-335-7769). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Awakening Life Force: The Philosophy and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Psychology of “Spontaneous > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yoga” > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swami Rajarshi Muni, Llewellyn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Publications, St. Paul, Minn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 55164-0383, U.S.A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ISBN 0-87542-581-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ayurveda > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Ayurveda and the Mind: the Healing of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness. David > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Frawley. Lotus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Press, PO Box 325, Twin Lakes, Wisconsin, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > USA 53181. ISBN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 0-914955-36-5 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. The Ayurvedic Cookbook: a Personalized > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guide to Good Nutrition and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Health. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amadea Morningstar with Urmila Desai, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lotus Press, PO Box 325, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Twin Lakes, WI > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 53181. ISBN 0.914955.06.3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Yoga & Ayurveda. David Frawley. Lotus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Press, PO Box 325, Twin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lakes, Wisconsin, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > USA 53181. ISBN 0-914955-81-0 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hatha Yoga > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Yoga Mind and Body. Sivananda Yoga > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedanta Center, London. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fireside Books > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ltd., Willowdale, ON Canada. ISBN > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1-55209-013-2 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. The Sivananda Companion to Yoga. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Center > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaia Books Limited, London. Simon and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Schuster, New York, New > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > York. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ISBN 0.671.47088.4 > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
