Orn, Neil spoke of practical levels of transparency, meaning 'who is governing what' in down to earth English. You are guessing your way to the domain of the divine and the new tools of deception. Calling this a parallel conversation would be an euphemism for lifting up the thinking lazy on the one hand of the scales.
On 26 Jun., 18:33, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > "...I fear this is on the decline." - ARCHY > > ..not so sure myself. I do know that the art of deception has a lot of > new technology (tools) these days. My guess is that the nature of this > aspect of how one presents them self to others hasn't changed much if > at all for centuries, perhaps longer. > > This sort of ego image seems to be an innate aspect of our > psyche...wishing to present a good or at least 'practical' "self" to > perceived others. The practical aspect of course has to do with how > one adapts to their environment, humans included. > > For us all to be able to say the emperor is wearing no clothes means > we all must see this clearly and not project other things upon it. > > On Jun 26, 8:27 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > A lot of people are certainly very disturbed by transparency - one can > > read Freud as saying we push most of what's pretty obvious out of > > consciousness or Norbert Elias as saying we sweep it all under the > > carpet of manners. Makes me queasy to be honest Orn, partly because I > > think there are some basics where we shouldn't let deception rule. > > The bugbear is the thought of bad government - power rarely allows > > transparency. I tend to like countervailing structures and to know > > who is governing what. I fear this is on the decline. > > > On 26 June, 15:33, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "...more practical levels of transparency." - archy > > > > Not so sure how much I would have to do with such a state...seems more > > > to be the domain of the divine. > > > > On Jun 25, 3:59 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Some quite old sociology probably would help if we could recognise it > > > > in our thinking and action more often. Goffman talked about 'total > > > > organisations' - from which we might recognise that many have very > > > > little choice and all of us should be wary of total thinking. Just as > > > > we yearn for integrity, someone is using the ploy of sincerity on us - > > > > just as we may realise this we may be using the shell of scepticism in > > > > order to certainly not be able to trust. In the end thinking doesn't > > > > have to be this piss-poor and we could have more practical levels of > > > > transparency. > > > > > On 25 June, 23:24, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > It's a tough job, but someone has to do it! ;-) > > > > > > On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Orny, what would I do - what would the world do - without you > > > > > > correcting me and my eye-sight! > > > > > > > On 25 Jun., 19:00, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > gabbers, as nice as it would be to give grasshopper the credit for > > > > > > > playing the oldest, here is a photo, and yes, the sound too...of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > oldest. 'Bill', in your article is playing wood (bamboo), this is > > > > > > > vulture wing bone. > > > > > > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8117915.stm > > > > > > > > On Jun 25, 9:05 am, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Relax, dj, that rope has long been > > > > > > > > cut.http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/mus... > > > > > > > > > On 25 Jun., 17:39, frantheman <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > And how would House Johnson deal with the Fremen? Are you > > > > > > > > > prepared for > > > > > > > > > everything planned by Molly's Missionaria Protectiva (aided > > > > > > > > > by the > > > > > > > > > Mentat, Archytas)? Not to mention Tinker's Face Dancers, > > > > > > > > > along with > > > > > > > > > Chris Muad'Dib Jenkins and his sister, Gabby "the Knife". > > > > > > > > > Me, I'm > > > > > > > > > dreaming Spice Dreams with Slip, who's an expert! > > > > > > > > > > On 25 Jun., 15:41, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > And we could call this life Melange. The spice of > > > > > > > > > > knowledge. House > > > > > > > > > > Johnson to control production and distribution. A race of > > > > > > > > > > former > > > > > > > > > > humanoids twisted by massive dosages of the Spice learn to > > > > > > > > > > bend space > > > > > > > > > > and travel is reinvented. Yeah. > > > > > > > > > > > dj > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 4:31 AM, > > > > > > > > > > archytas<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > There's been a recent wall built on the question of how > > > > > > > > > > > we might > > > > > > > > > > > better believe what we know. One of my guesses follows > > > > > > > > > > > Popper in that > > > > > > > > > > > we can't know now what we will know in the future. Say > > > > > > > > > > > this small > > > > > > > > > > > moon of Saturn in the news does have an ocean and life. > > > > > > > > > > > Say we can > > > > > > > > > > > expand our brains by eating this life and there is an > > > > > > > > > > > expansion > > > > > > > > > > > similar to that alleged in our progression from common > > > > > > > > > > > ancestors that > > > > > > > > > > > didn't affect the other apes in the same way. We might > > > > > > > > > > > actually be > > > > > > > > > > > able to see through the madness, understand travel in > > > > > > > > > > > different ways > > > > > > > > > > > and so on (bit like a video game). On the other hand, if > > > > > > > > > > > we could > > > > > > > > > > > stop fighting each other, maybe life would change anyway > > > > > > > > > > > ...we don't > > > > > > > > > > > bother with this latter much, seemingly oblivious to just > > > > > > > > > > > how much the > > > > > > > > > > > future could influence thinking and our lives. > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 June, 07:01, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> It's a Humpty Dumpty ism, but all truth knows that one > > > > > > > > > > >> replaces > > > > > > > > > > >> another and another in succession to maintain the > > > > > > > > > > >> position on the > > > > > > > > > > >> wall. Scrabblers pile the bricks and mix the mortar and > > > > > > > > > > >> then wonder > > > > > > > > > > >> why the wall is so high and out of reach. > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Jun 25, 12:31 am, archytas <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > A very apt version of the conundrum Gabby. I think we > > > > > > > > > > >> > are dealing > > > > > > > > > > >> > with madness and consequently a rationality of the > > > > > > > > > > >> > mad. Habermas was > > > > > > > > > > >> > slated for providing too much of an answer, thus > > > > > > > > > > >> > becoming just the > > > > > > > > > > >> > next 'rule-giver', just another intellectual telling > > > > > > > > > > >> > us what we should > > > > > > > > > > >> > do. I just want us not to have to scrabble about > > > > > > > > > > >> > making livings and > > > > > > > > > > >> > get rid of the over-powerful. It just seems so damned > > > > > > > > > > >> > difficult to > > > > > > > > > > >> > even try. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > On 19 June, 17:32, gabbydott <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > >> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > I don't know. To think one can promote lying in a > > > > > > > > > > >> > > society is as naive > > > > > > > > > > >> > > as thinking one can promote truing the society. In > > > > > > > > > > >> > > the world you speak > > > > > > > > > > >> > > of, the child is encouraged to publically shout out > > > > > > > > > > >> > > that the Emperor > > > > > > > > > > >> > > is naked while being expected to quietly learn the > > > > > > > > > > >> > > taylor's job in > > > > > > > > > > >> > > their chambers. What is it you're really after? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > On 19 Jun., 15:11, archytas <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Habermas is almost impossible to read, which is a > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > great shame. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Academic critique of his work actually ends up > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > rather like Gabby's few > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > lines, extrapolated to ridiculous length. He was > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > gazetted into the > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Hitler Youth at the end of the war, something that > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > only goes to show > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > we can all end up serving perverse human > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > interests. Francis' notion of > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > what might happen through wider communication and > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the possible > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > differences new technologies might bring to > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 'argument' is probably key > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > to whether we have a future or not. There has been > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > a debate around > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > legitimation portrayed in academe as between > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Habermas, Lyotard, > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Derrida, Foucault and others. My own view is that > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the insularity of > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > this debate (most people have barely heard of it > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and its protagonists) > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > is itself part of the problem. Press in the UK has > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > been ridiculing our > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > unworthy politicians through expense claims leaked > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > to one newspaper. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Today, Parliament has "published" the details > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > under so much black ink > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > that we would know less had we been left to rely > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > on official > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > "transparency" and we will get much the same when > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the Iraq scandal is > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > hidden from us next year. What we lack is honesty > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > and substantial > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > links between this and its use in day-to-day > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > actions. Many people > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > believe it is childish to look at work like this > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > because the real > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > world is so dirty. I suspect the real childishness > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > lies in fear we all > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > have of standing up to the bullying system, which > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > we see as holding > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > all the cards We know bosses and politicians are > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > bad, but are > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > generally weak-kneed in the face of power and easy > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > enough to buy off > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > with a few trinkets and the threat of poverty if > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > we stray into telling > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the truth. Much as I like Habermas, I'm sure > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > these days that work > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > like his is pussy-footing pisswitter lamenting our > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > lack of courage. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > His academic critics often referred to him as 'the > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Professor' as they > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > felt he was advocating a system that had to be > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > followed to put the > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > system right - perhaps they feared yet another > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > righteous theory as > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > potentially Nazi or Stalinist, even if Jurgen was > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > a man of the left. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Academe was wet-through with cultural identity > > ... > > Erfahren Sie mehr » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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