“Actually, I agree the guy's idea stinks. Tariffs are designed to bring economic advantage to the tariff maker, not some 3rd world country…” - DJ
Thanks for your candor Don…I do greatly appreciate it. As a small aside, as I understand it, the US used tariffs as it’s only source of revenue until about the time of our civil war, then as about 2/3rds of our revenue until WWI, and then about 1/3rd of our revenue until WWII. Since WWII, not so much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tariffs_in_the_United_States As to Carter and the hostage ‘crisis’, again, history clarifies this as an engineered and perpetuated situation by Carter’s political opponents. Do note that that they were released a few minutes after Reagan was sworn in. There is much to support Ronald’s involvement in keeping them from being released until he was in office. He of course, denies this. So, in my jaded eyes, the shame goes again to the opponent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis Regardless, the USA treated the country and people of Iran in a very shameful way by installing a puppet leader and government there. I wonder how those in the US would feel/react if a president were forced upon it by some other government, say China? Again, Chomsky’s principal of “universality” is the standard as far as I can see. Oh, and yes I know the adage about bringing Hitler into the argument and seldom do so. In this case, it was clearly meant to show how completely I deny the notion of having a ‘good man that means well’ as being a standard for leadership alone. And I would be willing to set up a list of arguments that that term does apply to A.H…..just thought it would be a waste of cyberspace since I had already made my point. “It would be more accurate to say many liberals have a distaste or contempt for this country rather then a hatred.” – DJ Don, I would appreciate some support for this statement. I just don’t see it. Of course, we may have differing understandings of the term ‘country’. A country is only an agreed upon set of borders on the planet. One could include within this definition whatever system of governance is codified. Further, one could include how said governance is in fact carried out..as well as numerous other characteristics. http://www.onelook.com/?w=country&ls=a Over all, the notion of love it or leave it leaves no room for discussion. As I said, I love the US…in many ways. I do NOT love some of it’s elected officials nor how they governed. There is a great difference here. I love the constitution and feel great sadness that it is being disregarded overall. I feel great sadness that the US does not honor it’s agreements with other countries. I certainly found no comparison between the constitution and the notion of Empire! Again, I am quite happy to address things case by case. Slogans normally do more to cloud the truth. “The World Apology Tours of '09 our leaders have engaged in is a testament to this.” – DJ If you really mean what you typed, you must see how our current leaders wish to apologize to the entire liberal world for the last 8 years of ideological Hegemony. I don’t think it would even take a liberal in a different country to have great dislike for being treated the way our last regime approached the world. “Your own rhetoric lends credence to this observation IMO but I'll take your word for it you love this country. Just not the way it is, apparently. ;-/ “ – DJ See above. And, there is no ‘the way it is’….’it’ is constantly in flux and this is as the founding fathers envisioned it. Remember? “…in order to form a more perfect union…”. This clearly implied an ongoing process. Part of that process includes evaluation. Shall we start a topic on evaluation of specific activities? I’m willing. “Getting back to ownership. It seems obvious to me that most people take better care of what they've paid for. Making it theirs and assuming the responsibility for maintenance and repair. Giving people a stake in an enterprise motivates them to make sure said enterprise succeeds….” – DJ Here we need to address other ways of approaching being. One possibility is a culture that sees everything as belonging to everyone. In this way, the ownership is a collective effort. So far, I don’t think this reality has been addressed. Also, there are examples of peoples who see all as being of the divine and that ‘we’ own absolutely nothing. Of course, there are other bastardized systems like ‘from each according to their ability, to each according to their need’. And so forth. While what you present is one of numerous possibilities, even it does not hold water when the people are ignorant. One simple example: graffiti. Those who provide the rest of us with this ‘artwork’ have differing reasons and views concerning its function. Sometimes, it is a declaration of territory. Other times, it IS artwork. And, (I’m guessing now) from your and my views, it is defacement of public (most times) property. “If folks are used to getting stuff for free with no effort on their part what value do you think they place on what they receive?” – DJ Don, so far, I do not know anyone who fits into this group. Do you? “Seriously, you've spoken of your privileged youth in the past. What value did you place on nice clothes, fancy cars and club memberships? My guess would be not much.” – DJ Sorry to disappoint Don…however I greatly valued all of ‘my’ nice things..from clothing [that I took immaculate care of] to Corvette [that I washed and waxed weekly at the very least], from being a member of almost every club in High School [that I was sure to attend and participate in] to DeMolay [where I worked my way through all but the one highest office due to leaving town], from being a scout [numerous merit badges, den chief etc.] to band captain [took leadership seriously], treasurer of chess club [true fiduciary responsibility and winning 1st place as 4th board in an all city tournament] to first chair in an honorary military academy band [I worked very hard on all of my instruments, garnering 36 1st ribbons in High School Regional and State tournaments]. Now, when it came to the country club that we lived next to, I would caddy for my father even though I didn’t play golf and he was always intoxicated. I loved (and appreciated the opportunity to) swim in their pool and walk around their lake. Later, I became a life guard at a public pool and saved 2 lives during my tenure there. I greatly valued each and every aspect of my life. My guess is that you have a jaded view of such people. “ My impression of you is hemp wear and a tie-dye T-shirt and custom painted/peace symboled VW Bug.(how close did I get?)” – DH Very very far off of the mark Don…sorry again! I have never owned any clothing made of hemp. I made one tie-dye shirt many decades ago and after finding I had to wash it separately from all of the rest of my clothes, I gave it away! At least, it was an art project and a learning experience. I wear suit and tie to interviews, slacks and ironed shirt to jobs, and, yes, an Hawaiian shirt when around the house and being casual.[except for this last week when it has been hovering around 105-6 degrees F here] Overall, my dress is very conservative…very. Currently, I own a maroon Camry 4 door that I see receives all of the scheduled maintenance as shown in it’s ownership papers. I wash and wax it fairly regularly and take great care where I park it so I don’t even get dents or dings in the doors etc. So, again, your projected beliefs taint reality and greatly miss the mark. I hope the time I have taken to share and provide some reality feedback is helpful. “You can't really own what you haven't worked for or bleed for or at least taken care of for a few years.” – DJ Don, your belief is noted. It does not match my reality nor what I observe to be the reality for most human beings though. “Them's my 2 bits.” – DJ Well Don, I guess I got what I paid for, no? ;-) On Aug 1, 12:01 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Actually, I agree the guy's idea stinks. Tariffs are designed to > bring economic advantage to the tariff maker, not some 3rd world > country. It may be the single dumbest essay I've ever wasted my time > reading. Frankly, I posted it for the title. I assumed(wrongly) no > one would get past it. ;-) > > I won't engage in ad hominem attacks on Bush or Carter in this post. > I will say many people that know anything about a >year-long hostage > crisis and gas lines and energy price controls would say that > President Carter left his one term in somewhat of a disgrace. Jus' > sayin'. Been awhile since I've heard Bush compared to Hitler. This > usually signals the end of debate so I shall abide by the precedent. > > It would be more accurate to say many liberals have a distaste or > contempt for this country rather then a hatred. The World Apology > Tours of '09 our leaders have engaged in is a testament to this. Your > own rhetoric lends credence to this observation IMO but I'll take your > word for it you love this country. Just not the way it is, > apparently. ;-/ > > Getting back to ownership. It seems obvious to me that most people > take better care of what they've paid for. Making it theirs and > assuming the responsibility for maintenance and repair. Giving people > a stake in an enterprise motivates them to make sure said enterprise > succeeds. If folks are used to getting stuff for free with no effort > on their part what value do you think they place on what they receive? > Seriously, you've spoken of your privileged youth in the past. What > value did you place on nice clothes, fancy cars and club memberships? > My guess would be not much. My impression of you is hemp wear and a > tie-dye T-shirt and custom painted/peace symboled VW Bug.(how close > did I get?) You can't really own what you haven't worked for or bleed > for or at least taken care of for a few years. Them's my 2 bits. > > dj > > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:48 PM, > > > > ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote: > > > “Yes, yes. Such a nincompoop he became President of the U.S. after > > being governor of Texas. A real moron.<-----sarcasm” – DJ > > > So, are you suggesting that it takes a person of higher standards to > > become president? We all know this is not the case. There have been > > very very poor presidents let alone presidents with very poor judgment > > or even business sense in the case of W. Look into his history. EVERY > > business he put his hands on failed from drilling for oil (dry wells) > > to baseball…even when his family helped him out, which was about all > > the time, most people would say that this person with a relatively low > > IQ wouldn’t even make a good small businessman in a small city. Yes, > > you can have a beer with him. Yes, he may be charming to some. (not to > > me) Yes, he may be “a good man that means well”. However, IF one uses > > that standard to elect a head of state alone, the result is obvious. > > Truth be told, I think that many of the worst leaders worldwide may > > have met that standard…and, yes, I include A. Hitler in that list. > > > Oh, and Carter didn’t need to ‘just shut up and go away’ like W nor > > Nixon did. There is a difference between leaving office in disgrace > > and not doing so. > > > And, no, I don’t believe conservatives hate poor people. In many ways, > > I think they are afraid of them and/or merely ignore them if possible. > > I say this having come from an upper class conservative Republican > > family. Most criticism about ‘hating the US’ is only a confusion and > > apparent conflation of addressing specific people and policies rather > > than the ideal. > > > So, now that you ‘teased’ me into reading the link, do you disagree > > with my analysis of it? :-) > > > On Jul 31, 3:38 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Yes, yes. Such a nincompoop he became President of the U.S. after > >> being governor of Texas. A real moron.<-----sarcasm That said, it > >> is agreed he made some rather large mistakes during his career. > >> Without going into detail to defend him I feel it necessary to say > >> that I personally believe him to be a good man that means well. I'd > >> say the same thing about Carter if he'd just shut up and go away like > >> Bush has. > > >> On hating America. As it is common for those on the left to believe > >> us conservatives hate poor people it is just as common for those on > >> the right to believe the left hate the U.S.(but they support the > >> troops!) I felt I had to tease you into reading my link. Sometimes I > >> sweat and surf and pour over websites to find the perfect link and I > >> have a sneaking suspicion no one bothers to go and read it half the > >> time. :-( > > >> -Mewling Ant > > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:21 AM, ornamentalmind<[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >> > Even with your smiley Don, I will say that I love America (USA)…and > >> > have never trashed it. I do call to attention that which I find to be > >> > ethically a problem. One general area is actions individuals take that > >> > cause additional suffering in the world. > > >> > Also, it is in this way that I found fault with the majority of Ws > >> > political declarations. This even though as is the case with most > >> > presidents these days he presented notions and ideology that was > >> > mostly formulated by his staff. Based on what I had read about him and > >> > his family many many years before he even ran for office, I could > >> > guess that unless he changed greatly, he would be the same bumbling > >> > and catastrophic decider he had been all of his lifetime. I always > >> > hoped for change, but, didn’t happen. He still exhibits signs of > >> > actual brain damage. > > >> > As to the article…as cogent as it appears, it is but the ravings of a > >> > loony! Ideologues are a dime a dozen…and this locally grown one has > >> > escaped across the pond…good luck law students in England! Yes, I do > >> > appreciate ethics…and it is something that we all need to contemplate. > >> > I’ve ranted for tariffs here numerous times. I’ve mentioned how the US > >> > (corporations) has raped and pillaged the planet too…all of this is > >> > obvious, unless one only gets their news from corporations. IF the US > >> > government began to abide by the laws and treaties it has signed > >> > tomorrow, the world would be a far better place. My lungs are not > >> > being held until this happens. Are yours? > > >> > Oh, and I couldn’t find anything in that article that even remotely > >> > guaranteed ‘the people’ received money for goods let alone being able > >> > to make the determination to sell. It did imply that world banks would > >> > receive a windfall if this fantasy were actualize though. > > >> > On Jul 30, 10:45 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:23 PM, > > >> >> ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > “…Broadly speaking, laws defending ownership stimulate economic > >> >> > growth.” – DJ > > >> >> > Don, quit true! And, let us not forget the rest of that equation, laws > >> >> > defending ownership stimulate poverty. > > >> >> Nein. > > >> >>http://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/05/12/leif-wenar/we-all-own-stolen-g... > > >> >> Very long but interesting. Trashes Bush and America in general. You > >> >> should enjoy it. ;-) > > >> >> dj > > >> >> > On Jul 30, 3:43 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> I don't know the show or the character of the investigator but I'd > >> >> >> guess it was just a way to differentiate his victim(the one he's > >> >> >> assigned to) from some other murdered person. I don't see it as > >> >> >> claiming ownership. My brother, my sister, my school, my band, my > >> >> >> job > >> >> >> etc. Doesn't so much claim ownership but more like claims belonging > >> >> >> and/or allegiance. > > >> >> >> I have learned it's generally not a good idea to grow attached to > >> >> >> 'things.' The only thing I might dash into a burning building to > >> >> >> retrieve is my guitar. A Gibson acoustic given as a wedding gift > >> >> >> from > >> >> >> my wife. Beautiful mellow tonal quality. Superbly unique as well. > >> >> >> I'd never seen anyone with one until The Edge played one just like > >> >> >> mine at a late night U2 appearance on The Conan O'Brien Show a few > >> >> >> years ago. Judging by the serial number mine was the second one > >> >> >> made. > >> >> >> I wouldn't take 10 thousand for it but I'm sure it's probably only > >> >> >> worth 2 or 3. I love that guitar and it is MINE. > > >> >> >> Now, when we get into property rights or Bush's theme of an > >> >> >> 'ownership > >> >> >> society' we are talking about a whole different ball of wax I'm > >> >> >> assuming Fran wasn't really referring to. Someone has already stated > >> >> >> the relationship to freedom. This link helps describe some of the > >> >> >> reasons I happen to agree with this connection. Broadly speaking, > >> >> >> laws defending ownership stimulate economic growth. > > >> >> >>http://www.heritage.org/index/Default.aspx > > >> >> >> dj > > >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 4:50 AM, deripsni<[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > I repeat, its the teams job, with the help of the community. If the > >> >> >> > lead investigator wants to the take the input and help of others > >> >> >> > and > >> >> >> > make it his/her own, in my mind thats the actions of an insecure > >> >> >> > person enforcing their position. If you prefer to see it > >> >> >> > differently, > >> >> >> > thats okay ;-] > > >> >> >> > On Jul 29, 7:47 pm, BB47 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> Could it possibly be you are taking that innocent little phrase > >> >> >> >> a > >> >> >> >> tad too far? The lead investigator is in charge. I am grateful > >> >> >> >> that > >> >> >> >> they take a strong personal responsibility to find out not only > >> >> >> >> what > >> >> >> >> happened but to catch the murderer. To bring in the OJ case > >> >> >> >> seems an > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
