“… I'll give the liberal bashing a rest. I have to say after reading gruff's definitions scrounged from some ivy league website I like the sound of and would rather be considered a liberal anyway. I'm all for taking risks and getting things done. I'm also all for change. Big change. Let's start by cutting the size of the federal government in half. That should shake things up. ;-) Or even better, "First, let's kill all the lawyers." -jk,” – DJ
OK, take a rest if you wish. Truth is I am quite conservative in many ways. I wish to conserve the US constitution, rule of law, a free press, a government of the people, by the people and for the people… etc. OK, IF you wish to cut the federal government in half, shall we start with the military?...followed by FEMA.. Homeland Security???? What? Do you have a viable list of programs to trash? Almost everyone would agree to cut pork…except those who profit from it of course. Of what is left, how to reduce? Just during Ronald Reagan’s term(s), the funding for mental illness was cut to 1/10th of what it was when he took office. This even though dear Nancy was going around promoting mental health, along with the oh so wise ‘Just say no.’ campaign. “I do not think being a good man/woman and meaning well is a prerequisite for a good President. It seemed to me you were putting Bush in the Great Satan category and, while I admit he made some bad calls, I would hardly put him in such disreputable company.” - DJ First, I in no way embrace a or any ‘Satan’…great or small so the notion makes no sense to me. Secondly, we may agree with some necessary qualities for leadership. As to what I thought of W, overall I have attacked his philosophy and most of his direct actions, not the man himself. As I’ve said, in a way I pity the man…and see him as having been greatly impaired most of his life. “Your opinion of the Hostage Crisis and what prolonged it sounds ludicrous to me.” – DJ So be it. Here is a bit on the roots of middle east terror: http://www.democracynow.org/2008/3/3/stephen_kinzer_on_the_us_iranian Carter on Reagan etc. http://www.democracynow.org/2007/9/10/fmr_president_jimmy_carter_on_palestine Another view of Carter and Iran: http://www.democracynow.org/2007/1/30/barry_lando_on_the_history_of Oh, and in the same vein, one example of illegal top level activity: http://www.democracynow.org/1996/11/25/10_year_anniversary_of_the_iran Reagan and arms for hostages, including his lies: [PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN:* A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that’s true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.] http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/7/robert_parry_on_what_the_corporate More depth on the hostages situation including Carter’s attempt at getting them and Reagan’s part. http://www.democracynow.org/2004/2/17/a_multigenerational_family_of_fibbers_fmr “Treaties only work for as long as both parties get a benefit or at least a perceived benefit from it. In the real world; promises are made to be broken. …” – DJ Well, while there is apparent truth here, by extension, laws and treaties are but convenient lies, no? IF so, why do we even discuss them? Perhaps we live in an era when deception rules. I have theories here …but will not impose ‘em. “I deliberately gave you a cartoon personification of a hippie as a joke. Feel free to send some back; I can take it. Are you sure you don't have some patchouli oil under your bathroom sink? Come on, man. Admit it. You've got a peace symbol pin or at least one of those Christian fish symbols with the feet on them on your car, don't you? Throw me a bone here! I'm going to lose my status as the resident clairvoyant. Oh wait, that's Slip...;-) “ – DJ I have never said I haven’t played the part of a hippy, in fact quite the opposite. My history includes such a role and many many others. This is one way I feel more like a true independent, based on experiences in many different socio-economic-cultural strata of society. While I have a specific view, I feel I can see most of the big picture. As to your last riff on HS, GPAs and selfishness…I must admit to fairly high grades, but not nearly what they could/should have been. 12 universities…not much other than experience and information in numerous areas to show for it. No regrets. As to what can be taken away…I too know this. Regardless of my early days, I have spend many days without food due to poverty…lived in a room where I would wake up in the morning and frost would be covering the inside walls and windows. I have slept in roach and/or rat infested hovels. One room places with a shared toilet down the hall. This is but one small part of my history. And, perhaps contrary to what you believe, I too agree that in some sense humans are selfish. I’ve addressed this elsewhere but quickly will say that to survive, we do exhibit a concern for ourselves. On Aug 1, 10:21 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Orn, I was referring to the actions of our government and our > relations with other countries as being representative of America and > what is despised or resented by some on the left. I thought that > would be clear, sorry. I'll give the liberal bashing a rest. I have > to say after reading gruff's definitions scrounged from some ivy > league website I like the sound of and would rather be considered a > liberal anyway. I'm all for taking risks and getting things done. > I'm also all for change. Big change. Let's start by cutting the size > of the federal government in half. That should shake things up. ;-) > Or even better, "First, let's kill all the lawyers." -jk, don't tell > the creator... > > I do not think being a good man/woman and meaning well is a > prerequisite for a good President. It seemed to me you were putting > Bush in the Great Satan category and, while I admit he made some bad > calls, I would hardly put him in such disreputable company. Your > opinion of the Hostage Crisis and what prolonged it sounds ludicrous > to me. It is a very poor tactic to blame an opponent for personal > failures. To his credit, I don't remember Carter ever giving credence > to this wild conspiracy theory. > > I feel great sadness that the US does > not honor it’s agreements with other countries.-OM > > I get the feeling this list is probably very long but could you just > list your top 2 or 3 references for this claim? Treaties only work > for as long as both parties get a benefit or at least a perceived > benefit from it. In the real world; promises are made to be broken. > While I'm sure our congress has it's history of making bone-headed > mistakes(just look at our present snafu goofballs) they must have felt > it was beneficial to us at the time. I'd like to check it out and see > if it was. > > I deliberately gave you a cartoon personification of a hippie as a > joke. Feel free to send some back; I can take it. Are you sure you > don't have some patchouli oil under your bathroom sink? Come on, man. > Admit it. You've got a peace symbol pin or at least one of those > Christian fish symbols with the feet on them on your car, don't you? > Throw me a bone here! I'm going to lose my status as the resident > clairvoyant. Oh wait, that's Slip...;-) > > I was a goof off in High School and hardly ever studied and squeezed > out a minimum GPA to get into college. I didn't know what real > studying was and had a rude awakening. I took just about everything > for granted and lost much but learned a great deal. I learned to > appreciate what you have now because tomorrow it can all be taken away > and there will be absolutely nothing you can do about it. I learned > then and everything I see reinforces my opinion that people are out > for themselves even if they don't think they are. We are selfish when > we squeeze out of the womb and we remain so for our entire lives. It > is almost unhealthy to be anything else. IMO. > > dj > > > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 4:01 PM, ornamentalmind<[email protected]> > wrote: > > > “Actually, I agree the guy's idea stinks. Tariffs are designed to > > bring economic advantage to the tariff maker, not some 3rd world > > country…” - DJ > > > Thanks for your candor Don…I do greatly appreciate it. As a small > > aside, as I understand it, the US used tariffs as it’s only source of > > revenue until about the time of our civil war, then as about 2/3rds of > > our revenue until WWI, and then about 1/3rd of our revenue until WWII. > > Since WWII, not so much. > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tariffs_in_the_United_States > > > As to Carter and the hostage ‘crisis’, again, history clarifies this > > as an engineered and perpetuated situation by Carter’s political > > opponents. Do note that that they were released a few minutes after > > Reagan was sworn in. There is much to support Ronald’s involvement in > > keeping them from being released until he was in office. He of course, > > denies this. So, in my jaded eyes, the shame goes again to the > > opponent. > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis > > > Regardless, the USA treated the country and people of Iran in a very > > shameful way by installing a puppet leader and government there. I > > wonder how those in the US would feel/react if a president were forced > > upon it by some other government, say China? Again, Chomsky’s > > principal of “universality” is the standard as far as I can see. > > > Oh, and yes I know the adage about bringing Hitler into the argument > > and seldom do so. In this case, it was clearly meant to show how > > completely I deny the notion of having a ‘good man that means well’ as > > being a standard for leadership alone. And I would be willing to set > > up a list of arguments that that term does apply to A.H…..just thought > > it would be a waste of cyberspace since I had already made my point. > > > “It would be more accurate to say many liberals have a distaste or > > contempt for this country rather then a hatred.” – DJ > > Don, I would appreciate some support for this statement. I just don’t > > see it. Of course, we may have differing understandings of the term > > ‘country’. A country is only an agreed upon set of borders on the > > planet. One could include within this definition whatever system of > > governance is codified. Further, one could include how said governance > > is in fact carried out..as well as numerous other characteristics. > >http://www.onelook.com/?w=country&ls=a > > Over all, the notion of love it or leave it leaves no room for > > discussion. As I said, I love the US…in many ways. I do NOT love some > > of it’s elected officials nor how they governed. There is a great > > difference here. I love the constitution and feel great sadness that > > it is being disregarded overall. I feel great sadness that the US does > > not honor it’s agreements with other countries. I certainly found no > > comparison between the constitution and the notion of Empire! Again, I > > am quite happy to address things case by case. Slogans normally do > > more to cloud the truth. > > “The World Apology Tours of '09 our leaders have engaged in is a > > testament to this.” – DJ > > If you really mean what you typed, you must see how our current > > leaders wish to apologize to the entire liberal world for the last 8 > > years of ideological Hegemony. I don’t think it would even take a > > liberal in a different country to have great dislike for being treated > > the way our last regime approached the world. > > > “Your own rhetoric lends credence to this observation IMO but I'll > > take your word for it you love this country. Just not the way it is, > > apparently. ;-/ “ – DJ > > See above. And, there is no ‘the way it is’….’it’ is constantly in > > flux and this is as the founding fathers envisioned it. Remember? “…in > > order to form a more perfect union…”. This clearly implied an ongoing > > process. Part of that process includes evaluation. Shall we start a > > topic on evaluation of specific activities? I’m willing. > > > “Getting back to ownership. It seems obvious to me that most people > > take better care of what they've paid for. Making it theirs and > > assuming the responsibility for maintenance and repair. Giving people > > a stake in an enterprise motivates them to make sure said enterprise > > succeeds….” – DJ > > Here we need to address other ways of approaching being. One > > possibility is a culture that sees everything as belonging to > > everyone. In this way, the ownership is a collective effort. So far, I > > don’t think this reality has been addressed. Also, there are examples > > of peoples who see all as being of the divine and that ‘we’ own > > absolutely nothing. Of course, there are other bastardized systems > > like ‘from each according to their ability, to each according to their > > need’. And so forth. While what you present is one of numerous > > possibilities, even it does not hold water when the people are > > ignorant. One simple example: graffiti. Those who provide the rest of > > us with this ‘artwork’ have differing reasons and views concerning its > > function. Sometimes, it is a declaration of territory. Other times, it > > IS artwork. And, (I’m guessing now) from your and my views, it is > > defacement of public (most times) property. > > > “If folks are used to getting stuff for free with no effort on their > > part what value do you think they place on what they receive?” – DJ > > Don, so far, I do not know anyone who fits into this group. Do you? > > > “Seriously, you've spoken of your privileged youth in the past. What > > value did you place on nice clothes, fancy cars and club memberships? > > My guess would be not much.” – DJ > > Sorry to disappoint Don…however I greatly valued all of ‘my’ nice > > things..from clothing [that I took immaculate care of] to Corvette > > [that I washed and waxed weekly at the very least], from being a > > member of almost every club in High School [that I was sure to attend > > and participate in] to DeMolay [where I worked my way through all but > > the one highest office due to leaving town], from being a scout > > [numerous merit badges, den chief etc.] to band captain [took > > leadership seriously], treasurer of chess club [true fiduciary > > responsibility and winning 1st place as 4th board in an all city > > tournament] to first chair in an honorary military academy band [I > > worked very hard on all of my instruments, garnering 36 1st ribbons in > > High School Regional and State tournaments]. Now, when it came to the > > country club that we lived next to, I would caddy for my father even > > though I didn’t play golf and he was always intoxicated. I loved (and > > appreciated the opportunity to) swim in their pool and walk around > > their lake. Later, I became a life guard at a public pool and saved 2 > > lives during my tenure there. I > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
