Hey Orn, thanks for engaging. I have some responses. ;-) It is so strange that we see the world in such a different way Don! Perhaps I didn’t mean not-for-profit when it comes to doctors. England has a system where the MDs do quite well with socialized medicine…so does Canada…and, if my memory is correct, France is good too. Many other countries have such a system and the vast majority of the doctors are fine with it. Perhaps you only know a few spoiled brats? ;-)
It's not strange at all. We get our info from different sources and have lead entirely different lives. We disagree on almost everything and this doesn't surprise me. It's gruff that gives me pause with his dead on insight on some matters and incorrect opinions(i.e., not like mine) on others. Maybe docs are well taken care of in England, I don't know. I know they have private practices that cater to the wealthy that get much better care then those on the public system. When I see some World Organization(i.e., socialist) rating the health care of countries I always take it with a grain of salt. I believe and so do most of the people I know(including doctors) that we have the best quality care in the world right here in the USA. That said, in discussions with doctors only one has complained about Health Care Reform. He's my parent's pain management Dr. and doesn't seem like much of a brat but I could be wrong. His specialty along with his client base is likely to disappear under a single-payer system. They'll be referred to end-of-life management. What bureaucrat would sanction easing the pain of someone that is a drag on the system rather then an asset? Most Dr.s will probably see their client base increased with the number of new patients freshly insured so I perfectly understand why they'll like the new system. I'm not sure how well the hospitals and future patients will do, however. Check this out. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574344342571670158.html I'm not keen on full deregulation. Too many crackpot would-be doctors out there. I think the medical profession does a fair job of policing themselves and I think we should retain laws that require certain practices to be carried out by real doctors. Don, what have you seen? As far as I know there is no final proposal ready for the president to sign yet, is there? As to the tax payers, yes, perhaps the top 2 % will have to go back to paying their fair share, but when all is taken into account, the costs will be less to the rest of us. Hmmm, sounds like Texas has returned to the confederacy, no? ;-) Financial slavery is just that…slavery as far as I can tell. Regular payments my A$$!!! I keep hearing this defense. "Their is no bill for the President to support!" "Ha, checkmate! All your arguments are straw man because the President has no opinion!" Well I say that's a bunch of malarkey. His support of a single-payer system is well documented. Add that to what appears to be a free-reign policy with regards to the House and outtacontrol Pelosi and a reasonable person would assume he supports what his fellow super-libs support. The costs will not be less for me or for most of the tax payers I know with employer sponsored health care. I suspect they will discontinue service soon after government run health care becomes available. It is unlikely I'll see a raise to compensate. I'm old school. I think when you borrow money you should pay it back with interest and when someone offers you help you reciprocate asap with more generosity then they initially showed you. People that have the ability to pay money back and choose not to are deadbeats. Yes, I've known people like this. I am very surprised that in your long life you haven't. You have been blessed with the people you've met. I'm jealous. dj On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:42 AM, ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote: > > “Here's the problem. Ok, one of the problems with not-for-profit > medicine. Doctors that excel usually expect some form of reward for > their excellence. A warm fuzzy feeling that you are helping people > isn't enough for most people. They want money and lots of it.” – DJ > > It is so strange that we see the world in such a different way Don! > Perhaps I didn’t mean not-for-profit when it comes to doctors. England > has a system where the MDs do quite well with socialized medicine…so > does Canada…and, if my memory is correct, France is good too. Many > other countries have such a system and the vast majority of the > doctors are fine with it. Perhaps you only know a few spoiled > brats? ;-) > > “If you look at the quality of the work or product of something that > is free and compare it to that of work or product that is done/made > for the purpose of profit you will see what I mean. Compare a free > clinic with a for-profit clinic. Compare a British hospital with one > of our private hospitals right here in Houston. It's not like that > 100% of the time but on average I'd rather pay for my health care. > You get what you pay for. An exception might be the Shriner's kid's > hospital here in Houston.(and probably other cities) Surgeons donate > their time and services here frequently to get that warm, fuzzy > feeling. It supplements the even warmer, fuzzier feeling they get > cashing their checks from their private practice. “ =- DJ > > > You seem to be conflating numerous entirely different systems Don. No > one is proposing a system that will not pay health professionals.(If > they want, they can still do pro bono work too!) And, as I’m sure you > know, the majority of MDs and Nurses are for Single Payer as the best > system. They just want to take care of people, not the insurance > companies and filling out forms. They do not want to have to ask if a > person has insurance before they treat them. Such a system will pay > the doctors and nurses what they need. It just won’t be so good for > the current stock holders of health insurance companies and their > CES’s. While I care about them perhaps they can find an honorable job. > (excuse the hyperbole there!) > > “As for lowering the cost I have six words. Tort reform, tort reform > and tort reform. With a congress packed full of lawyers this ain't > likely. I'd put this group of lobbyists right behind Teacher's > Unions > in how well they are taken care of by our elected officials. So since > tort reform is but a dream I have what congress could do is open up > the health insurance business to competition. Not with government > subsidized Medicare or Medicaid but with each other. Allow folks to > get insurance from other states. Deregulate it somewhat to allow > people to chose the amount of coverage they want.” – DJ > > So Don, what about full deregulation? Sounds good. And, throw in what > the Congress uses as well as the military and medicare….most western > countries have a well working system of health care that includes > state sponsored care. The result is that no longer do people die > because they don’t have insurance or even if they do! Tort reform? > Perhaps. But this is far away from the real issue now. Some would > suggest you are dragging a pink mackerel across the road! :-D Just say > ‘Yes’ Don, to health care that everyone can afford. Let people decide > whether they wish to line the pockets of stockholders and CEOs or just > get taken care of if they get sick. Seems fair, no? Full deregulation > would be a great thing. > > “I agree costs are high. I have no problem in Congress addressing > this issue but what I've seen so far will cause more problems then it > solves and will probably cost more for the tax payers. As an aside, > here in Texas if you owe medical bills you can take your time paying > them off without penalty of extra charges or added interest. So if > you get nailed with a 60,000 dollar surgery and rehab bill you can > spread that out and just pay 100 bucks a month until it's paid off or > you die. The key is regular payments. Isn't that right Slip? “ – DJ > > Don, what have you seen? As far as I know there is no final proposal > ready for the president to sign yet, is there? As to the tax payers, > yes, perhaps the top 2 % will have to go back to paying their fair > share, but when all is taken into account, the costs will be less to > the rest of us. Hmmm, sounds like Texas has returned to the > confederacy, no? ;-) Financial slavery is just that…slavery as far as > I can tell. Regular payments my A$$!!! > > “Unfortunately, one of the reasons costs are so high is the incredible > amount of deadbeats running around. It's disgusting. I'd investigate > maybe having a couple of big, burly orderlies to check folks for > insurance, credit cards or briefcases full of cash and bounce anyone > that doesn't have these things back out in the street on their ear. > That ought to bring costs down. “ – DJ > > Deadbeats? Are you kidding? Do you personally know these people? I > don’t. In fact, decades ago, the indigent (deadbeats in your parlance > perhaps) were written off by public hospitals…even private ones! Today > the bottom line has pushed its way too far ahead of any line of > health. Your fantasy, as entertaining as it may be, only obfuscates. > The USA is down to something like 38th in the world when it comes to > health care but it is number one in costs. Without having to look any > further, it is clear that a big change must happen and soon. Doctors, > Nurses, even congressmen are afraid of a revolution if this doesn’t > happen as I hear it. > > > > > > On Aug 12, 3:13 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: >> Here's the problem. Ok, one of the problems with not-for-profit >> medicine. Doctors that excel usually expect some form of reward for >> their excellence. A warm fuzzy feeling that you are helping people >> isn't enough for most people. They want money and lots of it. If you >> look at the quality of the work or product of something that is free >> and compare it to that of work or product that is done/made for the >> purpose of profit you will see what I mean. Compare a free clinic >> with a for-profit clinic. Compare a British hospital with one of our >> private hospitals right here in Houston. It's not like that 100% of >> the time but on average I'd rather pay for my health care. You get >> what you pay for. An exception might be the Shriner's kid's hospital >> here in Houston.(and probably other cities) Surgeons donate their >> time and services here frequently to get that warm, fuzzy feeling. It >> supplements the even warmer, fuzzier feeling they get cashing their >> checks from their private practice. >> >> As for lowering the cost I have six words. Tort reform, tort reform >> and tort reform. With a congress packed full of lawyers this ain't >> likely. I'd put this group of lobbyists right behind Teacher's Unions >> in how well they are taken care of by our elected officials. So since >> tort reform is but a dream I have what congress could do is open up >> the health insurance business to competition. Not with government >> subsidized Medicare or Medicaid but with each other. Allow folks to >> get insurance from other states. Deregulate it somewhat to allow >> people to chose the amount of coverage they want. >> >> I agree costs are high. I have no problem in Congress addressing this >> issue but what I've seen so far will cause more problems then it >> solves and will probably cost more for the tax payers. As an aside, >> here in Texas if you owe medical bills you can take your time paying >> them off without penalty of extra charges or added interest. So if >> you get nailed with a 60,000 dollar surgery and rehab bill you can >> spread that out and just pay 100 bucks a month until it's paid off or >> you die. The key is regular payments. Isn't that right Slip? >> Unfortunately, one of the reasons costs are so high is the incredible >> amount of deadbeats running around. It's disgusting. I'd investigate >> maybe having a couple of big, burly orderlies to check folks for >> insurance, credit cards or briefcases full of cash and bounce anyone >> that doesn't have these things back out in the street on their ear. >> That ought to bring costs down. >> >> dj >> >> >> >> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:01 PM, BB47<[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Yes, I think health care is one of those things that should not be for >> > profit, even though I am a believer in Capitalism. And I am not a >> > believer in price controls but that too seems to be the only viable >> > way to control the costs >> >> > On Aug 12, 1:53 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> "...I don't want to get into the debate out the "blame" of the health >> >> care system but without insurance anything major can wipe you out over >> >> here. ..." - BB47 >> >> >> Truth be told...even IF one has health insurance, the odds are that >> >> anything even remotely near being 'major' can and will wipe you out >> >> anyway. >> >> The term 'insurance' appears to only apply to the corporations these >> >> days...they are assured to make a killing! >> >> On Aug 12, 9:56 am, BB47 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > Well our health care system over here as you know is messed up beyond >> >> > belief. That would have cost me $3000. I don't want to get into the >> >> > debate out the "blame" of the health care system but without insurance >> >> > anything major can wipe you out over here. When a major operation >> >> > costs half a million dollars? You better have insurance. A friend at >> >> > work broke her leg. Sixty grand. I am not going to argue anymore on >> >> > it (you might be relieved!) Talking politics and religion is said to >> >> > be the worst possible topics to discuss. I dropped one. One less >> >> > step in a bad direction is an improvement isn't it? >> >> >> > On Aug 12, 9:16 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > If it is not food she is not interested,, she is good that way. >> >> > > Allan >> >> >> > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:06 PM, BB47 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > > > On Aug 12, 1:53 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > Well for me I would be the loser so far over the last seven years >> >> > > > > has >> >> > > > cost >> >> > > > > me less than 80 euros per year >> >> > > > > Allan >> >> >> > > > Just don't let your dog eat a nasty kitchen sponge that fell off the >> >> > > > counter, or the time she chewed the metal parts off my jacket to get >> >> > > > to the treats I left in there. >> >> >> > > -- >> >> > > ( >> >> > > ) >> >> > > I_D Allan- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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