You got me Orn, I'm afraid I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence of private practice in Britain. Might have that wrong. My ex-wife's sister lives over there and complains about the health care system all the time. Granted, she is a spoiled brat due to being raised in the affluent Chicago area so her opinions may be skewed. Plus, I don't know any nor have I spoken with any British physicians. I did read and I think Fran mentioned that Germany has private for-profit hospitals, I guess that's what I was thinking of. Here's a link I did find about socialist health care in the UK. It's an opinion piece, just like my contributions to this forum. Only better written; he's a professional.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1206149/STEPHEN-GLOVER-I-deeply-resent-Americans-sneering-health-service---thats-truth-hurts.html 200 grand a year doesn't go very far when you have that much in school loans still to pay and 100 grand a year in mal-practice insurance to pay. Doesn't matter anyway because this is the USA and we'll have a different system when the Dems finally decide to stop blaming concerned citizens and actually vote on the damn thing. They don't need a single republican vote to pass this and I marvel at all the drama. Just give the blue dogs some juicy pork and get it done. This dog and pony show(town hall meetings) is getting tiresome, don't you think? Whether or not the rich deserve better health care is irrelevant. The fact is they will get it no matter what system we end up with. I would imagine that you would favor soaking them with taxes regardless. So Don, would you please support that ‘we’ have the best > quality care her in the USA? While it IS a common sound bite and > doctrine presented by many, the facts just don’t seem to be there to > support it. Perhaps you have reliable sources I haven’t seen. -Orn I think we differ on what we define as quality. While you may think insuring everyone gives better quality I would say the opposite was true. It doesn't take a google master to find articles on US cancer survival rates. We have better(and more) facilities on average and this is probably why folks come from all over the world to get operated on here. If you honestly don't see how World organizations like the UN are biased against the US there is really nothing else to discuss. I'm clearly biased against criminals and deadbeats. Is it a stretch for me to expect 'world organizations' to be biased against the evil, hateful, planet destroying, imperialist America? I won't try to defend anecdotal evidence. It influences me and I offer it to explain my opinions but I don't think my folks Dr. would let me run copies of his legal papers. Sorry to disappoint you Orn. If you were truly interested in learning more about my references you could easily google them. The fact that you chose not to tells me anything I might find to support my opinion will go unread. Or scanned. > And, IF competition in fact works, let the big boys compete with > single payer. UPS and FedX do just fine against the USPS. All that is > needed is actual competition…something we don’t have today in health > insurance. Oh, and as to the very poor article you linked us to, the > logic more than sucks by the author. He conflates Medicare with single > payer, public option with single payer. Either he doesn’t understand > how it would work or he is disingenuous about how he frames an > argument. I found nothing of substance in it. -ORN Seriously? You're comparing the USPS with nationalized health care? I could understand a gaff like that from an inexperienced and economically naive new president but I expect more from you Orn. If you would bother to actually listen to what some of the public are saying you would know that the government is already the biggest buyer of medical care and when they pay hospitals and doctors they pay at a rate much lower then the rest of us that have real insurance. How is that competition? The hospitals make up the difference by, you guessed it, charging me and my insurance company more. If that seems like competition to you maybe you should refresh yourself in free market principles. As far as understanding how ObamaCare would work, I thought we'd both come to the conclusion that NOBODY knows. All we can do is speculate. That's all I'm doing. > Uhhh, and exactly what is this? Clearly it is opinion and not > argumentation. In fact, most of it seems like name calling rather than > using any clear thinking. So, exactly what do you mean by ‘free-reigh > policy’, ‘outtacontrol Pelosi’ (who I haven’t wanted to see be in > office for years by the way), and ‘super-libs’??? Aw come on. Let me have my fun. All work and no play makes Don a dull boy. Free-reign was a clever pun. It's like free-rein combined with a dig at Pelosi for being such a monarch. Get it? She keeps getting in trouble over it too. Obama needs to have a talk with her, she's outtacontrol. Obama is right of center?! rotflmao I think you should take a closer look at his voting record and ignore much of what he said while trying to get elected. Right of center. Good one, Orn. . you claim that costs will be more for you or the same. > How so? You suspect service to be discontinued. What service? Would > there be any reasonable replacement for it (whatever it is)? And, what > does you getting a raise have to do with a better health care > system???? Seems to be far afield. The University pays roughly 700 bucks a month to cover myself and my son. When or if this is discontinued I very much doubt if I will receive a raise to cover this loss. I will be expected, possibly required(we don't know yet) to go on the public plan. The service I'm talking about(I thought this was obvious, sorry) is health care. As I've no doubt made painfully obvious I don't think this service is a right. It is a commodity. > Well, ‘old school’ would throw the money lenders out of the temple > Don!!! So, in Don’s world, when someone offers to help, you should > reciprocate asap with more generosity… Sounds good!!! Maybe you will > give some time and money to get single payer passed!!!!! > As to deadbeats, I wonder who these people are…and how you know them. > You aren’t in law enforcement are you? And, of course, the best > example of what you call a deadbeat is the CEO of a health insurance > company for exactly the reasons you present!!! Criminal in fact. I think defenestration is a viable solution for much of societies ills. I would like to start with the House of Representatives and work my way up. Meet you on the Capitol steps, Orn? Ah, the sweet, sharp smell of Revolution is in the air....or maybe it's the beans I had for supper. I think a lot of CEO's got off too lightly. As for the deadbeats in my past have no concern. It was a good learning experience that has helped make me the cynical realist I am today. Some of the best lessons are painful. I sincerely hope you never get burned. dj > > > On Aug 13, 3:17 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hey Orn, thanks for engaging. I have some responses. ;-) >> >> It is so strange that we see the world in such a different way Don! >> Perhaps I didn’t mean not-for-profit when it comes to doctors. England >> has a system where the MDs do quite well with socialized medicine…so >> does Canada…and, if my memory is correct, France is good too. Many >> other countries have such a system and the vast majority of the >> doctors are fine with it. Perhaps you only know a few spoiled >> brats? ;-) >> >> It's not strange at all. We get our info from different sources and >> have lead entirely different lives. We disagree on almost everything >> and this doesn't surprise me. It's gruff that gives me pause with his >> dead on insight on some matters and incorrect opinions(i.e., not like >> mine) on others. >> >> Maybe docs are well taken care of in England, I don't know. I know >> they have private practices that cater to the wealthy that get much >> better care then those on the public system. When I see some World >> Organization(i.e., socialist) rating the health care of countries I >> always take it with a grain of salt. I believe and so do most of the >> people I know(including doctors) that we have the best quality care in >> the world right here in the USA. That said, in discussions with >> doctors only one has complained about Health Care Reform. He's my >> parent's pain management Dr. and doesn't seem like much of a brat but >> I could be wrong. His specialty along with his client base is likely >> to disappear under a single-payer system. They'll be referred to >> end-of-life management. What bureaucrat would sanction easing the >> pain of someone that is a drag on the system rather then an asset? >> Most Dr.s will probably see their client base increased with the >> number of new patients freshly insured so I perfectly understand why >> they'll like the new system. I'm not sure how well the hospitals and >> future patients will do, however. Check this out. >> >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020425140457434434257167... >> >> I'm not keen on full deregulation. Too many crackpot would-be >> doctors out there. I think the medical profession does a fair job of >> policing themselves and I think we should retain laws that require >> certain practices to be carried out by real doctors. >> >> Don, what have you seen? As far as I know there is no final proposal >> ready for the president to sign yet, is there? As to the tax payers, >> yes, perhaps the top 2 % will have to go back to paying their fair >> share, but when all is taken into account, the costs will be less to >> the rest of us. Hmmm, sounds like Texas has returned to the >> confederacy, no? ;-) Financial slavery is just that…slavery as far as >> I can tell. Regular payments my A$$!!! >> >> I keep hearing this defense. "Their is no bill for the President to >> support!" "Ha, checkmate! All your arguments are straw man because >> the President has no opinion!" Well I say that's a bunch of malarkey. >> His support of a single-payer system is well documented. Add that to >> what appears to be a free-reign policy with regards to the House and >> outtacontrol Pelosi and a reasonable person would assume he supports >> what his fellow super-libs support. The costs will not be less for me >> or for most of the tax payers I know with employer sponsored health >> care. I suspect they will discontinue service soon after government >> run health care becomes available. It is unlikely I'll see a raise to >> compensate. >> >> I'm old school. I think when you borrow money you should pay it back >> with interest and when someone offers you help you reciprocate asap >> with more generosity then they initially showed you. People that have >> the ability to pay money back and choose not to are deadbeats. Yes, >> I've known people like this. I am very surprised that in your long >> life you haven't. You have been blessed with the people you've met. >> I'm jealous. >> >> dj >> >> On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:42 AM, >> >> >> >> ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > “Here's the problem. Ok, one of the problems with not-for-profit >> > medicine. Doctors that excel usually expect some form of reward for >> > their excellence. A warm fuzzy feeling that you are helping people >> > isn't enough for most people. They want money and lots of it.” – DJ >> >> > It is so strange that we see the world in such a different way Don! >> > Perhaps I didn’t mean not-for-profit when it comes to doctors. England >> > has a system where the MDs do quite well with socialized medicine…so >> > does Canada…and, if my memory is correct, France is good too. Many >> > other countries have such a system and the vast majority of the >> > doctors are fine with it. Perhaps you only know a few spoiled >> > brats? ;-) >> >> > “If you look at the quality of the work or product of something that >> > is free and compare it to that of work or product that is done/made >> > for the purpose of profit you will see what I mean. Compare a free >> > clinic with a for-profit clinic. Compare a British hospital with one >> > of our private hospitals right here in Houston. It's not like that >> > 100% of the time but on average I'd rather pay for my health care. >> > You get what you pay for. An exception might be the Shriner's kid's >> > hospital here in Houston.(and probably other cities) Surgeons donate >> > their time and services here frequently to get that warm, fuzzy >> > feeling. It supplements the even warmer, fuzzier feeling they get >> > cashing their checks from their private practice. “ =- DJ >> >> > You seem to be conflating numerous entirely different systems Don. No >> > one is proposing a system that will not pay health professionals.(If >> > they want, they can still do pro bono work too!) And, as I’m sure you >> > know, the majority of MDs and Nurses are for Single Payer as the best >> > system. They just want to take care of people, not the insurance >> > companies and filling out forms. They do not want to have to ask if a >> > person has insurance before they treat them. Such a system will pay >> > the doctors and nurses what they need. It just won’t be so good for >> > the current stock holders of health insurance companies and their >> > CES’s. While I care about them perhaps they can find an honorable job. >> > (excuse the hyperbole there!) >> >> > “As for lowering the cost I have six words. Tort reform, tort reform >> > and tort reform. With a congress packed full of lawyers this ain't >> > likely. I'd put this group of lobbyists right behind Teacher's >> > Unions >> > in how well they are taken care of by our elected officials. So since >> > tort reform is but a dream I have what congress could do is open up >> > the health insurance business to competition. Not with government >> > subsidized Medicare or Medicaid but with each other. Allow folks to >> > get insurance from other states. Deregulate it somewhat to allow >> > people to chose the amount of coverage they want.” – DJ >> >> > So Don, what about full deregulation? Sounds good. And, throw in what >> > the Congress uses as well as the military and medicare….most western >> > countries have a well working system of health care that includes >> > state sponsored care. The result is that no longer do people die >> > because they don’t have insurance or even if they do! Tort reform? >> > Perhaps. But this is far away from the real issue now. Some would >> > suggest you are dragging a pink mackerel across the road! :-D Just say >> > ‘Yes’ Don, to health care that everyone can afford. Let people decide >> > whether they wish to line the pockets of stockholders and CEOs or just >> > get taken care of if they get sick. Seems fair, no? Full deregulation >> > would be a great thing. >> >> > “I agree costs are high. I have no problem in Congress addressing >> > this issue but what I've seen so far will cause more problems then it >> > solves and will probably cost more for the tax payers. As an aside, >> > here in Texas if you owe medical bills you can take your time paying >> > them off without penalty of extra charges or added interest. So if >> > you get nailed with a 60,000 dollar surgery and rehab bill you can >> > spread that out and just pay 100 bucks a month until it's paid off or >> > you die. The key is regular payments. Isn't that right Slip? “ – DJ >> >> > Don, what have you seen? As far as I know there is no final proposal >> > ready for the president to sign yet, is there? As to the tax payers, >> > yes, perhaps the top 2 % will have to go back to paying their fair >> > share, but when all is taken into account, the costs will be less to >> > the rest of us. Hmmm, sounds like Texas has returned to the >> > confederacy, no? ;-) Financial slavery is just that…slavery as far as >> > I can tell. Regular payments my A$$!!! >> >> > “Unfortunately, one of the reasons costs are so high is the incredible >> > amount of deadbeats running around. It's disgusting. I'd investigate >> > maybe having a couple of big, burly orderlies to check folks for >> > insurance, credit cards or briefcases full of cash and bounce anyone >> > that doesn't have these things back out in the street on their ear. >> > That ought to bring costs down. “ – DJ >> >> > Deadbeats? Are you kidding? Do you personally know these people? I >> > don’t. In fact, decades ago, the indigent (deadbeats in your parlance >> > perhaps) were written off by public hospitals…even private ones! Today >> > the bottom line has pushed its way too far ahead of any line of >> > health. Your fantasy, as entertaining as it may be, only obfuscates. >> > The USA is down to something like 38th in the world when it comes to >> > health care but it is number one in costs. Without having to look any >> > further, it is clear that a big change must happen and soon. Doctors, >> > Nurses, even congressmen are afraid of a revolution if this doesn’t >> > happen as I hear it. >> >> > On Aug 12, 3:13 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Here's the problem. Ok, one of the problems with not-for-profit >> >> ... >> >> read more »- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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