“You got me Orn, I'm afraid I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence of private practice in Britain. Might have that wrong…” - DJ
Don, thank you very much for not beating a dead red herring!!! ;-) ….and your integrity here. “200 grand a year doesn't go very far when you have that much in school loans still to pay and 100 grand a year in mal-practice insurance to pay.” – DJ Uhh, true enough Don. And, as I said, I forget the actual amount…in BRITAN, not the USA. The doctors interviewed showed their houses (very nice) and agreed that they lived very well. Of course, education does not cost the same over there. In fact, education here in the States wasn’t that bad until the Regan years and has been steadily going up since then. Besides the obvious philosophical dogma that brought the change by top politicians, my GUESS is that the proverbial ‘tax revolt’ (of the rich) has directly affected funds available for education here. Oh, and as to mal-practice insurance…we can all guess that that would change under a single payer system. “ Doesn't matter anyway because this is the USA and we'll have a different system when the Dems finally decide to stop blaming concerned citizens and actually vote on the damn thing. They don't need a single republican vote to pass this and I marvel at all the drama. Just give the blue dogs some juicy pork and get it done. This dog and pony show(town hall meetings) is getting tiresome, don't you think?” – DJ Uhhh, blaming concerned citizens??? What the heck is that? IF you mean the astroterfing…that has clearly been shown to be more deception and swiftboating directed by and funded by insurance companies. One would think that more people would be aware of this… And, as to the Dems and the vote, it was the Republicans who postponed the vote. Check the record. And, pork or no pork, the theater put on by the radical and well heeled right, shades of the Bush dynasty’s Florida chad count, is what I tire of most. And, of course, since the most powerful (read: money) of the sponsors for corporate TV include the drug pushers and mafia like insurance companies, I have no question as to why this sort of drivel is broadcast 24/7. During the reign of ‘W’, this type of action would have been touted as being treason. Of course, ‘we the people’ will lose out (the main topic here for me) when it comes to health care IF we all allow the propaganda of multinationals to subvert our will. Like with the war in Iraq, the majority of us want affordable health care, at least as good as the 37 other countries ahead of us in this area. “Whether or not the rich deserve better health care is irrelevant. The fact is they will get it no matter what system we end up with. I would imagine that you would favor soaking them with taxes regardless.” – DJ Don Don, soaking? I have countless times said that I agree with the graduated income tax (meaning how it operated during our (US) zenith over the last half of the 20th century). I have given examples, anecdotal, of how this works well and most agree with it. This has been inverted to the point where the have-nots now are expected to fund more percentage wise than the haves! ‘They’ (we, unless you are wealthy) are the ones being soaked today. “I think we differ on what we define as quality. While you may think insuring everyone gives better quality I would say the opposite was true.” – DJ Uhh, you could ask me. No, I don’t think that universal access to health care by definition means better quality. It does what it does. It gives MORE (in this case, meaning a better outcome) care to more people. As to the quality that you claim will be worse when we all pay into one big pot for insurance and do not have to pay stock holders nor insane CEO fees nor outlandish bonuses for failure, I can’t see how it would be worse for those who use it. Perhaps, again, you could support this claim? “It doesn't take a google master to find articles on US cancer survival rates. We have better(and more) facilities on average and this is probably why folks come from all over the world to get operated on here.” – DJ Perhaps we both can agree that statistics can be purchased? Regardless, my personal GUESS is that even whatever article you are pointing to above, if any, does not take into account those who couldn’t make it into the health care system due to poverty and just died. As to ‘better facilities’, we do have more technology. Since you are talking about cancer, the big things like MRIs, brain surgery, etc. are almost entirely reserved for those who have GOOD insurance. For the rest of us (the majority), we are turned down for ‘experimental procedures’, not allowed treatment because of poverty or, like the about 49% of bankruptcies here due to a medical ‘event’, become less than slaves and surfs for the rest of our lives owing money to just stay alive. Doctors know this. Nurses know this. They are for single payer. Yes, some ‘folks’ (sounds kinda down home doesn’t it? ;-) ) come here to get operated on. The technology and specialists who are reserved for the top 2% here, can be used to help people like Shaws and Kings. We know this. We also know that even the most rudimentary care for alzheimer’s patents cost too much for upper-middle class people here so in some cases they must move their parents to India for affordable care! Since I haven’t asked you, since you appear to be for a system that only supports the wealthy, do you prefer an oligarchy and/or fascism in the classical meaning of these systems to what the US constitution strives toward? (could be another topic) “If you honestly don't see how World organizations like the UN are biased against the US there is really nothing else to discuss.” – DJ Oh, I would GUESS (not know, except for a couple of specific leaders I have studied), that the majority of the leaders of other countries wish to defend themselves against hegemony. And, being a supporter of the principle of universality, I would support that view until US policy quiets down. In their heart they may be attracted to our experiment in government, but on a practical level, they have to protect their own countries. Perhaps you don’t agree? “ I'm clearly biased against criminals and deadbeats. Is it a stretch for me to expect 'world organizations' to be biased against the evil, hateful, planet destroying, imperialist America?” – DJ Perhaps the problem here Don is the use of the term ‘biased’. All too often it is used to imply an incorrect view when a view is just different from one’s own position. Shall we just agree to look at our own positions here? I can guess (as I did above) what others believe and why as well as the next person. “I won't try to defend anecdotal evidence. It influences me and I offer it to explain my opinions but I don't think my folks Dr. would let me run copies of his legal papers. Sorry to disappoint you Orn. If you were truly interested in learning more about my references you could easily google them. The fact that you chose not to tells me anything I might find to support my opinion will go unread. Or scanned.” – DJ Don, I don’t think I was asking for your MDs ‘legal papers’, whatever that means. I merely was requesting support, as is the general policy here, for your claims. I use anecdotes too. This is fine. However, we both must admit that when it comes to the difference between opinion and fact, regardless of emotional investment, the latter is more attractive, no? And, the general ‘rule’ is that the person making a claim is responsible for supporting it with evidence. I all too often use google etc. to delve more deeply into topics. This one I was looking for what YOU use for support. “Seriously? You're comparing the USPS with nationalized health care? I could understand a gaff like that from an inexperienced and economically naive new president but I expect more from you Orn.” – DJ First, I noticed that you didn’t respond to my analysis of the article you linked me to. I must admit that I appropriated the analogy from Barak. And, since much of the as I see it ignorant and/or purchased scare tactics used against ‘socialist medicine’ is taking a position against government involvement and suggesting a dire outcome. So, in this sense, the analogy has some merit. Ignore it if you wish. “If you would bother to actually listen to what some of the public are saying you would know that the government is already the biggest buyer of medical care and when they pay hospitals and doctors they pay at a rate much lower then the rest of us that have real insurance. How is that competition?” – DJ First, in direct response to your question, you are implying that government insurance is not ‘real insurance’. Secondly, you imply that ‘the rest of us’ have real insurance. . . meaning most of ‘us’. If you have good insurance that doesn’t turn you down on claims and you can afford it, all the best to you Don. I do not begrudge you at all. I only look for ‘a more perfect union’ in helping those who need a government to back them up. As to the competition, like the examples I gave, the health industry can cut CEO pay, reduce stockholder options, basically trim the fat at the top and throughout their corporation. I know that other industries are good at that. I gave a couple of examples even though they were borrowed. Also, they (private companies) might have to get rid of groups like the American Hospital Association (AHA) and America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) whose jobs are to increase costs for patients. I feel strange having to be the apologist for competition here. Perhaps you could do better? :- ) Oh, and do you think that ANY large or small insurance company has given up on the elderly just because there is a governmental plan available? You should know better. Look at AARP, one of the largest insurance fronts around! They are all doing all too well, thank you very much! So, competition already exists and more competition (not the conflation of the current situation with single payer) exists, I feel confident that all will be well. Don’t underestimate the creativity of entrepreneurship Don!!! “ As far as understanding how ObamaCare would work, I thought we'd both come to the conclusion that NOBODY knows. All we can do is speculate. That's all I'm doing.” – DJ Speculation noted Don. However, surfing the beliefs and logic under all of this is of value, no? Oh, and only IF true single payer passes will I accept the term ObamaCare. Anything else will be a failure for sure. Mark my words here! The University pays roughly 700 bucks a month to cover myself and my son. When or if this is discontinued I very much doubt if I will receive a raise to cover this loss.” – DJ I am very happy for you and your son Don to have a good health plan. Many do not. They already have only the POSSIBILITY of a public plan to look forward to. “ I will be expected, possibly required(we don't know yet) to go on the public plan.” – DJ Here you are projecting into the future POSSIBLE plan, right? “The service I'm talking about(I thought this was obvious, sorry) is health care. As I've no doubt made painfully obvious I don't think this service is a right. It is a commodity.” – DJ Well, Don, as a ‘commodity’, what is the problem with a governmental health care plan too? Competition! “I think defenestration is a viable solution for much of societies ills. I would like to start with the House of Representatives and work my way up. Meet you on the Capitol steps, Orn? Ah, the sweet, sharp smell of Revolution is in the air....or maybe it's the beans I had for supper. I think a lot of CEO's got off too lightly. As for the deadbeats in my past have no concern. It was a good learning experience that has helped make me the cynical realist I am today. Some of the best lessons are painful. I sincerely hope you never get burned.” – DJ Thank you Don! This is all ‘hope I can believe in’! …even the Blazing Saddles kind!!! Haha Did you know that Bill McGuire is back with his old insurance company, the one he got so much press for when it was divulged that he had received a $2,700,000,000.00 stock option? Oh, perhaps I have had some experience with ‘deadbeats’. Remember I used to be a CFO for a manufacturing firm. I do remember being careful who got credit. I do remember having to make the last call before sending those who wrote bad checks or gave bad CC info to collection etc. Is this what you mean? I already had budgeted a line item for such write offs as does any well organized business. http://lpa.igc.org/lpv25/lp05.htm On Aug 15, 12:37 am, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > Here's a couple of links that may answer for the UK ... > > http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_/_... > > http://www.payscale.com/research/UK/People_with_Jobs_as_Physicians_%2... > > And here's the info for the U.S. (more or less) > > Specialty Salary Ranges (Annual, Pre-Tax) > > Anesthesiology :$311,000 to $446,000 > Cardiology(Invasive) :$389,000 to $561,000 > Cardiology(Non-Inv) :$332,000 to $439,000 > Dermatology :$287,000 to $385,000 > Emergency Medicine :$216,000 to $300,000 > Family Medicine :$150,000 to $204,000 > Gastroenterology :$330,000 to $498,000 > General Surgery :$271,000 to $356,000 > Hospitalist :$174,000 to $217,000 > Internal Medicine :$175,000 to $209,000 > Neurology :$203,000 to $298,000 > Ob-Gyn :$231,000 to $304,000 > Oncology / Hematology :$296,000 to $410,000 > Orthopedics :$372,000 to $512,000 > Pediatrics :$140,000 to $202,000 > Plastic Surgery :$300,000 to $791,510 > Radiation Oncology :$357,000 to $453,000 > Radiology :$386,000 to $600,000 > Pathology :$239,000 to $331,000 > Psychiatry :$171,000 to $248,000 > Urology :$352,000 to $426,000 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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