“Maybe docs are well taken care of in England, I don't know.” – DJ It would help your argument if you did know Don, no? While they might not make what the top plastic surgeons in LA make, they make well over 100K/yr, in fact, I think I heard one say over 200K…but I am not sure of that and couldn’t find the clip.
“I know they have private practices that cater to the wealthy that get much better care then those on the public system.” – DJ Don, I would like to learn what you know. Would you please support this claim? And, while I wait for a list of British private MDs and documentation of how much better their care is than what everyone is entitled to, are you suggesting that the wealthy getting better care is a bad thing? Seems to defeat any argument for universal single payer care here. And, I still await the documentation. “ When I see some World Organization(i.e., socialist) rating the health care of countries I always take it with a grain of salt.” - DJ It is good to question everything Don. I do. Yet, to see all world organizations as socialist is a skewed point of view as I see it. And, socialism itself is fine in many areas. So, using that red-scare buzz word doesn’t exactly work on those who are not afraid of it. So, in this context, who would you accept when it comes to published global studies? That of Prudential?...Met Life? AARP? Anything by MDs? A speech by Sarah Palin??? Maybe that bastion of objectivity, FAUX News??? “I believe and so do most of the people I know(including doctors) that we have the best quality care in the world right here in the USA.” – DJ Well Don, as nice as that dogma might make one feel, we expect more here. As an aside, I haven’t taken an official poll of the people I know, but I can easily say the opposite of what you suggest…INCLUDING doctors. So Don, would you please support that ‘we’ have the best quality care her in the USA? While it IS a common sound bite and doctrine presented by many, the facts just don’t seem to be there to support it. Perhaps you have reliable sources I haven’t seen. “ That said, in discussions with doctors only one has complained about Health Care Reform. He's my parent's pain management Dr. and doesn't seem like much of a brat but I could be wrong. His specialty along with his client base is likely to disappear under a single-payer system. They'll be referred to end- of-life management.” – DJ Again, before you move on to asking rhetorical questions, leaving any qualifiers aside, would you support this claim please? Today, patients who can afford it are given both pain management and end-of-life management where appropriate and requested. I don’t see what point is attempting to be made here unless it might be some appeal to fear. Regardless, I will await any reputable study that supports this claim. Maybe in addition to that, a copy of the legal documents that would cause this imagined catastrophe for your parent’s MD would help to persuade me to your belief system. “What bureaucrat would sanction easing the pain of someone that is a drag on the system rather then an asset?” – DJ Uhhh, almost all bureaucrats would Don. Which ones in Don’s world wouldn’t? Again, I don’t know any. “Most Dr.s will probably see their client base increased with the number of new patients freshly insured so I perfectly understand why they'll like the new system.” – DJ Gee, you mean more people in ‘the greatest nation in the world’ would be able to receive health care? Sounds like a good thing to me. Why do you not like it? “I'm not sure how well the hospitals and future patients will do, however.” – DJ So, what are you saying here Don? Are you requiring to know the result of change before it is instituted? As for hospitals, which ones are you talking about? Private? Public? Either way, more patients will be able to afford care so my guess would be everyone in the hospital, patients included would do better. Perhaps a few in the billing department might have to be re-trained. “Check this out. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020425140457434434257167... “ - DJ Don, even though I’ve been burned on links before, I read much of this and scanned the rest. I don’t have the time nor patience to deconstruct it completely. However, IF anyone would not be objective about how single payer care would help the people of the US, the head of an international corporate hospital would be one of the first I would ignore, just after the CEO of Eli Lilly and the CEO of any of the top insurance companies. Almost everyone else would be for the change. Even today, as I rode the local rail to work a long time employee of a major insurance company said how much better a single payer system would be. She and another very close friend of mine who works with the largest insurance company both say they would rather lose their jobs and have universal health care. And, IF competition in fact works, let the big boys compete with single payer. UPS and FedX do just fine against the USPS. All that is needed is actual competition…something we don’t have today in health insurance. Oh, and as to the very poor article you linked us to, the logic more than sucks by the author. He conflates Medicare with single payer, public option with single payer. Either he doesn’t understand how it would work or he is disingenuous about how he frames an argument. I found nothing of substance in it. “I'm not keen on full deregulation. Too many crackpot would-be doctors out there. I think the medical profession does a fair job of policing themselves and I think we should retain laws that require certain practices to be carried out by real doctors.” – DJ Uhhh, and other than a red herring or perhaps just a non sequitur, what is this? NO ONE I know is talking about deregulation of MDs. In fact, I would be for more! We are talking about letting those who need health care talk with their doctor rather than a claims adjustor to see if procedures will be offered. “I keep hearing this defense. "Their is no bill for the President to support!" "Ha, checkmate! All your arguments are straw man because the President has no opinion!" Well I say that's a bunch of malarkey.” – DJ Don, I say the same thing. I know BO has an opinion. What I was asking was exactly which documents about say, single payer are you using for an argument? I do know that the Senate has come to no conclusion yet. I do hope that single payer gets to the floor though. Sadly, one almost never hears about this best of all options on corporate media. “ His support of a single-payer system is well documented. Add that to what appears to be a free-reign policy with regards to the House and outtacontrol Pelosi and a reasonable person would assume he supports what his fellow super-libs support. The costs will not be less for me or for most of the tax payers I know with employer sponsored health care. I suspect they will discontinue service soon after government run health care becomes available. It is unlikely I'll see a raise to compensate.” – DJ Uhhh, and exactly what is this? Clearly it is opinion and not argumentation. In fact, most of it seems like name calling rather than using any clear thinking. So, exactly what do you mean by ‘free-reigh policy’, ‘outtacontrol Pelosi’ (who I haven’t wanted to see be in office for years by the way), and ‘super-libs’??? BO is in no way liberal. He barely is middle of the road. My opinion is that he is right of center, but that is me. Back to the argument . . you claim that costs will be more for you or the same. How so? You suspect service to be discontinued. What service? Would there be any reasonable replacement for it (whatever it is)? And, what does you getting a raise have to do with a better health care system???? Seems to be far afield. “I'm old school. I think when you borrow money you should pay it back with interest and when someone offers you help you reciprocate asap with more generosity then they initially showed you. People that have the ability to pay money back and choose not to are deadbeats. Yes, I've known people like this. I am very surprised that in your long life you haven't. You have been blessed with the people you've met. I'm jealous.” Well, ‘old school’ would throw the money lenders out of the temple Don!!! So, in Don’s world, when someone offers to help, you should reciprocate asap with more generosity… Sounds good!!! Maybe you will give some time and money to get single payer passed!!!!! As to deadbeats, I wonder who these people are…and how you know them. You aren’t in law enforcement are you? And, of course, the best example of what you call a deadbeat is the CEO of a health insurance company for exactly the reasons you present!!! Criminal in fact. On Aug 13, 3:17 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Orn, thanks for engaging. I have some responses. ;-) > > It is so strange that we see the world in such a different way Don! > Perhaps I didn’t mean not-for-profit when it comes to doctors. England > has a system where the MDs do quite well with socialized medicine…so > does Canada…and, if my memory is correct, France is good too. Many > other countries have such a system and the vast majority of the > doctors are fine with it. Perhaps you only know a few spoiled > brats? ;-) > > It's not strange at all. We get our info from different sources and > have lead entirely different lives. We disagree on almost everything > and this doesn't surprise me. It's gruff that gives me pause with his > dead on insight on some matters and incorrect opinions(i.e., not like > mine) on others. > > Maybe docs are well taken care of in England, I don't know. I know > they have private practices that cater to the wealthy that get much > better care then those on the public system. When I see some World > Organization(i.e., socialist) rating the health care of countries I > always take it with a grain of salt. I believe and so do most of the > people I know(including doctors) that we have the best quality care in > the world right here in the USA. That said, in discussions with > doctors only one has complained about Health Care Reform. He's my > parent's pain management Dr. and doesn't seem like much of a brat but > I could be wrong. His specialty along with his client base is likely > to disappear under a single-payer system. They'll be referred to > end-of-life management. What bureaucrat would sanction easing the > pain of someone that is a drag on the system rather then an asset? > Most Dr.s will probably see their client base increased with the > number of new patients freshly insured so I perfectly understand why > they'll like the new system. I'm not sure how well the hospitals and > future patients will do, however. Check this out. > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405297020425140457434434257167... > > I'm not keen on full deregulation. Too many crackpot would-be > doctors out there. I think the medical profession does a fair job of > policing themselves and I think we should retain laws that require > certain practices to be carried out by real doctors. > > Don, what have you seen? As far as I know there is no final proposal > ready for the president to sign yet, is there? As to the tax payers, > yes, perhaps the top 2 % will have to go back to paying their fair > share, but when all is taken into account, the costs will be less to > the rest of us. Hmmm, sounds like Texas has returned to the > confederacy, no? ;-) Financial slavery is just that…slavery as far as > I can tell. Regular payments my A$$!!! > > I keep hearing this defense. "Their is no bill for the President to > support!" "Ha, checkmate! All your arguments are straw man because > the President has no opinion!" Well I say that's a bunch of malarkey. > His support of a single-payer system is well documented. Add that to > what appears to be a free-reign policy with regards to the House and > outtacontrol Pelosi and a reasonable person would assume he supports > what his fellow super-libs support. The costs will not be less for me > or for most of the tax payers I know with employer sponsored health > care. I suspect they will discontinue service soon after government > run health care becomes available. It is unlikely I'll see a raise to > compensate. > > I'm old school. I think when you borrow money you should pay it back > with interest and when someone offers you help you reciprocate asap > with more generosity then they initially showed you. People that have > the ability to pay money back and choose not to are deadbeats. Yes, > I've known people like this. I am very surprised that in your long > life you haven't. You have been blessed with the people you've met. > I'm jealous. > > dj > > On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:42 AM, > > > > ornamentalmind<[email protected]> wrote: > > > “Here's the problem. Ok, one of the problems with not-for-profit > > medicine. Doctors that excel usually expect some form of reward for > > their excellence. A warm fuzzy feeling that you are helping people > > isn't enough for most people. They want money and lots of it.” – DJ > > > It is so strange that we see the world in such a different way Don! > > Perhaps I didn’t mean not-for-profit when it comes to doctors. England > > has a system where the MDs do quite well with socialized medicine…so > > does Canada…and, if my memory is correct, France is good too. Many > > other countries have such a system and the vast majority of the > > doctors are fine with it. Perhaps you only know a few spoiled > > brats? ;-) > > > “If you look at the quality of the work or product of something that > > is free and compare it to that of work or product that is done/made > > for the purpose of profit you will see what I mean. Compare a free > > clinic with a for-profit clinic. Compare a British hospital with one > > of our private hospitals right here in Houston. It's not like that > > 100% of the time but on average I'd rather pay for my health care. > > You get what you pay for. An exception might be the Shriner's kid's > > hospital here in Houston.(and probably other cities) Surgeons donate > > their time and services here frequently to get that warm, fuzzy > > feeling. It supplements the even warmer, fuzzier feeling they get > > cashing their checks from their private practice. “ =- DJ > > > You seem to be conflating numerous entirely different systems Don. No > > one is proposing a system that will not pay health professionals.(If > > they want, they can still do pro bono work too!) And, as I’m sure you > > know, the majority of MDs and Nurses are for Single Payer as the best > > system. They just want to take care of people, not the insurance > > companies and filling out forms. They do not want to have to ask if a > > person has insurance before they treat them. Such a system will pay > > the doctors and nurses what they need. It just won’t be so good for > > the current stock holders of health insurance companies and their > > CES’s. While I care about them perhaps they can find an honorable job. > > (excuse the hyperbole there!) > > > “As for lowering the cost I have six words. Tort reform, tort reform > > and tort reform. With a congress packed full of lawyers this ain't > > likely. I'd put this group of lobbyists right behind Teacher's > > Unions > > in how well they are taken care of by our elected officials. So since > > tort reform is but a dream I have what congress could do is open up > > the health insurance business to competition. Not with government > > subsidized Medicare or Medicaid but with each other. Allow folks to > > get insurance from other states. Deregulate it somewhat to allow > > people to chose the amount of coverage they want.” – DJ > > > So Don, what about full deregulation? Sounds good. And, throw in what > > the Congress uses as well as the military and medicare….most western > > countries have a well working system of health care that includes > > state sponsored care. The result is that no longer do people die > > because they don’t have insurance or even if they do! Tort reform? > > Perhaps. But this is far away from the real issue now. Some would > > suggest you are dragging a pink mackerel across the road! :-D Just say > > ‘Yes’ Don, to health care that everyone can afford. Let people decide > > whether they wish to line the pockets of stockholders and CEOs or just > > get taken care of if they get sick. Seems fair, no? Full deregulation > > would be a great thing. > > > “I agree costs are high. I have no problem in Congress addressing > > this issue but what I've seen so far will cause more problems then it > > solves and will probably cost more for the tax payers. As an aside, > > here in Texas if you owe medical bills you can take your time paying > > them off without penalty of extra charges or added interest. So if > > you get nailed with a 60,000 dollar surgery and rehab bill you can > > spread that out and just pay 100 bucks a month until it's paid off or > > you die. The key is regular payments. Isn't that right Slip? “ – DJ > > > Don, what have you seen? As far as I know there is no final proposal > > ready for the president to sign yet, is there? As to the tax payers, > > yes, perhaps the top 2 % will have to go back to paying their fair > > share, but when all is taken into account, the costs will be less to > > the rest of us. Hmmm, sounds like Texas has returned to the > > confederacy, no? ;-) Financial slavery is just that…slavery as far as > > I can tell. Regular payments my A$$!!! > > > “Unfortunately, one of the reasons costs are so high is the incredible > > amount of deadbeats running around. It's disgusting. I'd investigate > > maybe having a couple of big, burly orderlies to check folks for > > insurance, credit cards or briefcases full of cash and bounce anyone > > that doesn't have these things back out in the street on their ear. > > That ought to bring costs down. “ – DJ > > > Deadbeats? Are you kidding? Do you personally know these people? I > > don’t. In fact, decades ago, the indigent (deadbeats in your parlance > > perhaps) were written off by public hospitals…even private ones! Today > > the bottom line has pushed its way too far ahead of any line of > > health. Your fantasy, as entertaining as it may be, only obfuscates. > > The USA is down to something like 38th in the world when it comes to > > health care but it is number one in costs. Without having to look any > > further, it is clear that a big change must happen and soon. Doctors, > > Nurses, even congressmen are afraid of a revolution if this doesn’t > > happen as I hear it. > > > On Aug 12, 3:13 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Here's the problem. Ok, one of the problems with not-for-profit > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
