Ohh I don't know about that one Gruff. Do you think then that the universe is not a whole, that it was created (or came into being) piecemeal, that the expansion was actuly of perhaps two differant universes, or that all that is contained within the universe is somehow not a part of it?
On 26 Aug, 14:24, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > This statement: "There is no space or time that can ever exist that is > not, already, a part of the whole." > > That is an unknowable and therefor an absurd statement as well as > being exemplary of the arrogance of the person who composed it. > > On Aug 26, 2:08 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 25 Aug, 22:01, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I'm asking whomever posted that virtually absurd statement about space > > > and time. > > > A spurious attack, there gruff. Explain WHY its 'absurd' and please > > back it up with facts. > > > > On Aug 25, 1:58 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Are you asking Pat? > > > > > On Aug 25, 4:56 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I'm curious to know how you come to be in possession of such absolute > > > > > knowledge about space and time? Was it revealed to you somehow? > > > > > > On Aug 25, 9:05 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > There is no space > > > > > > or time that can ever exist that is not, already, a part of the > > > > > > whole. And it is this point that I feel is vital to us > > > > > > understanding > > > > > > the true nature of the universe and our part in it. > > > > > > > This is very relevant and rings true. But why does this preclude > > > > > > changeability? Why does this mean we cannot change past or future > > > > > > into parts as yet undiscovered? > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 11:43 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 25 Aug, 15:58, Michael Berkovits <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > > > > What is your source for the contention that the space-time > > > > > > > > continuum > > > > > > > > referred to by physicists means a continuum with defined > > > > > > > > endpoints? I > > > > > > > > agree that the word "continuum" often means something with > > > > > > > > defined > > > > > > > > endpoints, but as far as I am aware, its usage in the phrase > > > > > > > > "space- > > > > > > > > time continuum does not." > > > > > > > > But it does. Have a look at this > > > > > > > link:http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q411.html > > > > > > > > But don't confuse 'missing points' with 'undiscovered points'. > > > > > > > From our perspective, the entire future is filled with > > > > > > > undiscovered > > > > > > > points (thus appearing open), and there are many undiscovered > > > > > > > points > > > > > > > in the past. But, within the whole of the continuum, none of its > > > > > > > points are missing. > > > > > > > > > I think that the theory of relativity holds that we can see > > > > > > > > things > > > > > > > > that happened far in the past (e.g., when we see an object that > > > > > > > > is 4 > > > > > > > > light years away, we are seeing how it looked 4 years ago), but > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > the future. As far as I kow, according to modern physics, the > > > > > > > > future > > > > > > > > hasn't happened yet. Do you have more information? > > > > > > > > Yes. You're mistaken about modern physics' view about the > > > > > > > future. > > > > > > > At least since Einstein. The fact of a space-time continuum > > > > > > > implies > > > > > > > that the continuum contains all of space and time. There is no > > > > > > > space > > > > > > > or time that can ever exist that is not, already, a part of the > > > > > > > whole. And it is this point that I feel is vital to us > > > > > > > understanding > > > > > > > the true nature of the universe and our part in it. > > > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 6:38 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Aug, 16:36, showmethehoney <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Pat, how can continuum have ends points defined? > > > > > > > > > > How can it not? A continuum is defined by its ends. For > > > > > > > > > example, a > > > > > > > > > line (a 1-dimensional entity) can be viewed as a continuum of > > > > > > > > > points > > > > > > > > > (zero-dimensional entities) from the beginning of the line to > > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > end. Along the line, there are no missing points, i.e., the > > > > > > > > > line is > > > > > > > > > continuous. So, too, our space-time continuum is continuous > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > beginning to end with no missing points. The philosophical > > > > > > > > > implications of us living in a space-time continuum are > > > > > > > > > enormous, as > > > > > > > > > it means that our conventional view of a future open to > > > > > > > > > possibilities > > > > > > > > > is simply not realistic/accurate. Einstein knew this, but > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > mentioned it rarely. To believe that the future is mutable > > > > > > > > > is the > > > > > > > > > modern-day equivalent of still believing the Earth is flat. > > > > > > > > > We have > > > > > > > > > to come to a new understanding of the universe and humanity's > > > > > > > > > role in > > > > > > > > > it and that will not happen until we've removed the comforting > > > > > > > > > blindfolds we 'prefer'. > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 24, 8:22 am, Pat <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Aug, 12:51, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, let me get this straight. You have a philosophy > > > > > > > > > > > > > that, in > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy, absolute truths are impossible. How do > > > > > > > > > > > > > you get past the > > > > > > > > > > > > > dichotomy of having such a contradictory absoloute > > > > > > > > > > > > > truth in your > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy? Alternatively, if you back off from the > > > > > > > > > > > > > statement and say > > > > > > > > > > > > > that your statement above is only a relative truth, > > > > > > > > > > > > > it, then, > > > > > > > > > > > > > logically allows for absolute truths to exist and > > > > > > > > > > > > > {that they could} be > > > > > > > > > > > > > duly ignored by you. Tricky stuff, Ian. Personally, > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've stated your whole case, here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh I think Pat that if you do not belive in a creator > > > > > > > > > > > > God then Ian's > > > > > > > > > > > > strance is going to be the best you will get. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many of Ian's ilke may well (and justified too I > > > > > > > > > > > > believe) accuse > > > > > > > > > > > > people like you and I of being philosophicly lazy, that > > > > > > > > > > > > we practice a > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of philosphy of the gaps, that we do not like to > > > > > > > > > > > > work out the > > > > > > > > > > > > hard question of the absolute and so we call it God and > > > > > > > > > > > > have done with > > > > > > > > > > > > it. I don't think it is an acusation that we can > > > > > > > > > > > > easily defend > > > > > > > > > > > > against, do you? > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I've been fairly diligent in my attempts to > > > > > > > > > > > discover the > > > > > > > > > > > truth about the One (not that I'm finished, yet!!). In > > > > > > > > > > > order to > > > > > > > > > > > defend against the rallying cry of those who offer no > > > > > > > > > > > comprehensive > > > > > > > > > > > alternative, one must proceed from the point of ontology. > > > > > > > > > > > Once we've > > > > > > > > > > > determined what it is that exists, THEN we can look at > > > > > > > > > > > what it can do > > > > > > > > > > > and how it does it. The answer to all the 'why' > > > > > > > > > > > questions to which > > > > > > > > > > > atheists would have you believe there are no reasonable > > > > > > > > > > > answers, > > > > > > > > > > > leaves them only a pool of 'unreasonable answers' from > > > > > > > > > > > which to choose > > > > > > > > > > > and futher blocks progress. > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main arguments against God is that atheists > > > > > > > > > > > see no > > > > > > > > > > > evidence that the universe is teleological, i.e., that it > > > > > > > > > > > is heading > > > > > > > > > > > in a particular direction with goals at the end. They > > > > > > > > > > > overlook the > > > > > > > > > > > FACT that we exist in a space-time continuum. The > > > > > > > > > > > continuum contains > > > > > > > > > > > ALL the past, present and future; that is, the ends are > > > > > > > > > > > already > > > > > > > > > > > defined (as is all the middle). If the ends are already > > > > > > > > > > > defined, then > > > > > > > > > > > the universe is, most definitely teleological, and the > > > > > > > > > > > stumbling block > > > > > > > > > > > (of no teleology) crumbles into dust before the weight of > > > > > > > > > > > one stone > > > > > > > > > > > (Einstein). > > > > > > > > > > > My main point was that it should be obvious that some > > > > > > > > > > > absolute > > > > > > > > > > > truths exist. Some of these may not be particularly > > > > > > > > > > > useful until one > > > > > > > > > > > extends them. Einstein looked for truth and found > > > > > > > > > > > special (and > > > > > > > > > > > general) relativity. Absolute truths are, usually, > > > > > > > > > > > things like > > > > > > > > > > > physical constants. But it is how those truths work > > > > > > > > > > > together and > > > > > > > > > > > allow for the relativity in between that muddies the > > > > > > > > > > > water and makes > > > > > > > > > > > the absolutes seem less important or obscure.- Hide > > > > > > > > > > > quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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