Ahh these things happen Gruff
On 26 Aug, 15:22, gruff <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lee, please refer to my reply to Justintruth above. I meant to
> include you in that reply but it slipped from my grasp.
>
> On Aug 26, 6:33 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ohh I don't know about that one Gruff.
>
> > Do you think then that the universe is not a whole, that it was
> > created (or came into being) piecemeal, that the expansion was actuly
> > of perhaps two differant universes, or that all that is contained
> > within the universe is somehow not a part of it?
>
> > On 26 Aug, 14:24, gruff <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > This statement: "There is no space or time that can ever exist that is
> > > not, already, a part of the whole."
>
> > > That is an unknowable and therefor an absurd statement as well as
> > > being exemplary of the arrogance of the person who composed it.
>
> > > On Aug 26, 2:08 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On 25 Aug, 22:01, gruff <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > I'm asking whomever posted that virtually absurd statement about space
> > > > > and time.
>
> > > > A spurious attack, there gruff. Explain WHY its 'absurd' and please
> > > > back it up with facts.
>
> > > > > On Aug 25, 1:58 pm, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Are you asking Pat?
>
> > > > > > On Aug 25, 4:56 pm, gruff <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > I'm curious to know how you come to be in possession of such
> > > > > > > absolute
> > > > > > > knowledge about space and time? Was it revealed to you somehow?
>
> > > > > > > On Aug 25, 9:05 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > There is no space
> > > > > > > > or time that can ever exist that is not, already, a part of the
> > > > > > > > whole. And it is this point that I feel is vital to us
> > > > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > > the true nature of the universe and our part in it.
>
> > > > > > > > This is very relevant and rings true. But why does this
> > > > > > > > preclude
> > > > > > > > changeability? Why does this mean we cannot change past or
> > > > > > > > future
> > > > > > > > into parts as yet undiscovered?
>
> > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 11:43 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On 25 Aug, 15:58, Michael Berkovits <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Pat,
>
> > > > > > > > > > What is your source for the contention that the space-time
> > > > > > > > > > continuum
> > > > > > > > > > referred to by physicists means a continuum with defined
> > > > > > > > > > endpoints? I
> > > > > > > > > > agree that the word "continuum" often means something with
> > > > > > > > > > defined
> > > > > > > > > > endpoints, but as far as I am aware, its usage in the
> > > > > > > > > > phrase "space-
> > > > > > > > > > time continuum does not."
>
> > > > > > > > > But it does. Have a look at this
> > > > > > > > > link:http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q411.html
>
> > > > > > > > > But don't confuse 'missing points' with 'undiscovered
> > > > > > > > > points'.
> > > > > > > > > From our perspective, the entire future is filled with
> > > > > > > > > undiscovered
> > > > > > > > > points (thus appearing open), and there are many undiscovered
> > > > > > > > > points
> > > > > > > > > in the past. But, within the whole of the continuum, none of
> > > > > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > points are missing.
>
> > > > > > > > > > I think that the theory of relativity holds that we can see
> > > > > > > > > > things
> > > > > > > > > > that happened far in the past (e.g., when we see an object
> > > > > > > > > > that is 4
> > > > > > > > > > light years away, we are seeing how it looked 4 years ago),
> > > > > > > > > > but not
> > > > > > > > > > the future. As far as I kow, according to modern physics,
> > > > > > > > > > the future
> > > > > > > > > > hasn't happened yet. Do you have more information?
>
> > > > > > > > > Yes. You're mistaken about modern physics' view about the
> > > > > > > > > future.
> > > > > > > > > At least since Einstein. The fact of a space-time continuum
> > > > > > > > > implies
> > > > > > > > > that the continuum contains all of space and time. There is
> > > > > > > > > no space
> > > > > > > > > or time that can ever exist that is not, already, a part of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > whole. And it is this point that I feel is vital to us
> > > > > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > > > > the true nature of the universe and our part in it.
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Aug 25, 6:38 am, Pat <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Aug, 16:36, showmethehoney
> > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Pat, how can continuum have ends points defined?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > How can it not? A continuum is defined by its ends. For
> > > > > > > > > > > example, a
> > > > > > > > > > > line (a 1-dimensional entity) can be viewed as a
> > > > > > > > > > > continuum of points
> > > > > > > > > > > (zero-dimensional entities) from the beginning of the
> > > > > > > > > > > line to its
> > > > > > > > > > > end. Along the line, there are no missing points, i.e.,
> > > > > > > > > > > the line is
> > > > > > > > > > > continuous. So, too, our space-time continuum is
> > > > > > > > > > > continuous from
> > > > > > > > > > > beginning to end with no missing points. The
> > > > > > > > > > > philosophical
> > > > > > > > > > > implications of us living in a space-time continuum are
> > > > > > > > > > > enormous, as
> > > > > > > > > > > it means that our conventional view of a future open to
> > > > > > > > > > > possibilities
> > > > > > > > > > > is simply not realistic/accurate. Einstein knew this,
> > > > > > > > > > > but only
> > > > > > > > > > > mentioned it rarely. To believe that the future is
> > > > > > > > > > > mutable is the
> > > > > > > > > > > modern-day equivalent of still believing the Earth is
> > > > > > > > > > > flat. We have
> > > > > > > > > > > to come to a new understanding of the universe and
> > > > > > > > > > > humanity's role in
> > > > > > > > > > > it and that will not happen until we've removed the
> > > > > > > > > > > comforting
> > > > > > > > > > > blindfolds we 'prefer'.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 24, 8:22 am, Pat
> > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 Aug, 12:51, "[email protected]"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, let me get this straight. You have a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy that, in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy, absolute truths are impossible. How
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > do you get past the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dichotomy of having such a contradictory
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > absoloute truth in your
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy? Alternatively, if you back off from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the statement and say
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that your statement above is only a relative
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > truth, it, then,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > logically allows for absolute truths to exist and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > {that they could} be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > duly ignored by you. Tricky stuff, Ian.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personally, I don't think
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you've stated your whole case, here.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Heh I think Pat that if you do not belive in a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > creator God then Ian's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > strance is going to be the best you will get.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many of Ian's ilke may well (and justified too I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > believe) accuse
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > people like you and I of being philosophicly lazy,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that we practice a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > kind of philosphy of the gaps, that we do not like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to work out the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hard question of the absolute and so we call it God
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and have done with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > it. I don't think it is an acusation that we can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > easily defend
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > against, do you?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I've been fairly diligent in my attempts
> > > > > > > > > > > > > to discover the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > truth about the One (not that I'm finished, yet!!).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In order to
> > > > > > > > > > > > > defend against the rallying cry of those who offer no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > comprehensive
> > > > > > > > > > > > > alternative, one must proceed from the point of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ontology. Once we've
> > > > > > > > > > > > > determined what it is that exists, THEN we can look
> > > > > > > > > > > > > at what it can do
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and how it does it. The answer to all the 'why'
> > > > > > > > > > > > > questions to which
> > > > > > > > > > > > > atheists would have you believe there are no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > reasonable answers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > leaves them only a pool of 'unreasonable answers'
> > > > > > > > > > > > > from which to choose
> > > > > > > > > > > > > and futher blocks progress.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > One of the main arguments against God is that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > atheists see no
> > > > > > > > > > > > > evidence that the universe is teleological, i.e.,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > that it is heading
> > > > > > > > > > > > > in a particular direction with goals at the end.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > They overlook the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > FACT that we exist in a space-time continuum. The
> > > > > > > > > > > > > continuum contains
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ALL the past, present and future; that is, the ends
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are already
> > > > > > > > > > > > > defined (as is all the middle). If the ends are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > already defined, then
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the universe is, most definitely teleological, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the stumbling block
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (of no teleology) crumbles into dust before the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > weight of one stone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > (Einstein).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > My main point was that it should be obvious that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > some absolute
> > > > > > > > > > > > > truths exist. Some of these may not be particularly
> > > > > > > > > > > > > useful until one
> > > > > > > > > > > > > extends them. Einstein looked for truth and found
> > > > > > > > > > > > > special (and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > general) relativity. Absolute truths are, usually,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > things like
> > > > > > > > > > > > > physical constants. But it is how those truths work
> > > > > > > > > > > > > together and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > allow for the relativity in between that muddies the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > water and makes
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the absolutes seem less important or obscure.- Hide
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