Heh yeah point taken. Yet in this instance I am truely lieing to you both of my hands are in fact white, so if your choice was to belive me then it would have been a foolish choice.
Some things Molly are in fact 'black and white' while yes some things are quite grey. So then the trick is knowing which system to apply to which situatuion. Sometime yes we can both be 'right', but sometimes one of us must be 'wrong'. Limitations also are real, and not inherently a bad thing(one must know ones limits). I can never fly like a bird unaided, this is a very real limitation of being human. In another thread, you agree that certian limitations on the rules of debate make things easier for all involved. Coherence is better than free for all when debating. Is this statement right or worng or both? On 28 Aug, 14:51, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > If the skin of a black hand had a condition called Vitiligo, it would > appear white, but in the bigger picture of genetics might be black. > Seeing the world as either or always is much like being trapped in old > argument, it sets parameters for limitation. > > On Aug 28, 9:23 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Yes of course we each belive what we do. However if I belive in the > > existance of God and Ian does not, then one of us IS wrong. Either God > > exists objectivly or God does not. > > > Morality is really the only realm where your stance can work. Going > > back to my two hands one which is white and one which is black. This > > can only be true or false, can it not? > > > On 28 Aug, 14:15, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > We each believe what we believe, right or wrong is the value we place > > > on that. Accurate or inaccurate might be closer to it, but that will > > > change as our understanding changes. If god exists for you and not > > > for me, then he both exists and doesn't. Which is accurate? That is > > > for each of us to determine, and our determination will change as our > > > viewpoint changes. > > > > On Aug 28, 8:36 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > Uh wait! You do not belive that there is a right or wrong? I assume > > > > you mean an incorrect and correct rather than a moral sense of right > > > > and wrong? > > > > > That does sound a little mad Molly. I mean either God exists or God > > > > does not would you agree? > > > > > On 28 Aug, 13:31, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > as I do not think there is a right or wrong, only what is possible, I > > > > > would say, within the realm of possibility, Pat's idea IS, and so I AM > > > > > > On Aug 28, 8:23 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Heh is it wicked then of me to ask Molly, what if your awareness > > > > > > changes to reveal that Pat's ideas are wrong? > > > > > > > On 28 Aug, 13:16, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > "What is that, Pat, all those other events that were equal > > > > > > > > > or even better alternates that did not happen ? Where are they > > > > > > > > ? Why > > > > > > > > are they ? What happens to them ? Are they nothing, > > > > > > > > meaningless, to > > > > > > > > be purged away from within us ?" > > > > > > > > As I understand it, Vam, they remain in the realm of possibility > > > > > > > and, > > > > > > > as your viewpoint brings them into your experience, a change in > > > > > > > viewpoint or awareness will manifest the possibility into your > > > > > > > experience. If your view includes what some would call cosmic > > > > > > > consciousness, or the entire realm of possibility, you will bring > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > into your experience - the possibility of the god within you - the > > > > > > > one. What you do - is change your view, or awareness. > > > > > > > > On Aug 28, 7:20 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 28 Aug, 11:06, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Good, Pat ! Indeed, Kingdom of God. I understand your saying > > > > > > > > > : It is > > > > > > > > > One. It is God. It is Kingdom. It is I. That makes four - > > > > > > > > > One, God, > > > > > > > > > Kingdom, and I. Now what ? You'd say, it is One. Then, why > > > > > > > > > were / > > > > > > > > > are the other three there ? What good are they, the purpose ? > > > > > > > > > Are > > > > > > > > > they or are they not ? > > > > > > > > > You are counting Maya. And you could go on endlessly and > > > > > > > > affect very > > > > > > > > little. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, whether it is four, three or one, it is I > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > command now, facing the music, standing, retreating or > > > > > > > > > advancing, > > > > > > > > > feeling, choking on my breath, dealing with my blood pressure, > > > > > > > > > thinking, confused, in doubt, knowing, analysing, having to > > > > > > > > > see, deal > > > > > > > > > with, decide, not confident, weak, happy, sad, noise, > > > > > > > > > pollution, > > > > > > > > > poverty, greed, good ... > > > > > > > > > Out of your own mouth: "having to see...". Where is your > > > > > > > > choice, > > > > > > > > there? For a moment, your hand betrayed your view of you. What > > > > > > > > choice did you have when you were thrust into this life? When > > > > > > > > did you > > > > > > > > 'acquire' your perceived ability to choose? It is not you, but > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > One that DOES all these things. > > > > > > > > > >It is I, with the choice and the power to > > > > > > > > > do or not to do, now. There is no automatic connection with > > > > > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > that idea of yours - four, three or one. None of that helps > > > > > > > > > me with > > > > > > > > > this task I have before me. Nothing you say or have advised > > > > > > > > > us to > > > > > > > > > obtain, in terms of idea or understanding, enters the picture > > > > > > > > > unless I > > > > > > > > > reflect upon it four, nine or seventeen times. Which luxury I > > > > > > > > > do not > > > > > > > > > have. It's to be done now. I even know I need to " do unto > > > > > > > > > others, as > > > > > > > > > I do unto myself." But, everything is unclear, much even > > > > > > > > > opposed to > > > > > > > > > me doing that. It just does not happen. It needs to be done, > > > > > > > > > everytime. Just doesn't happen, four, three or one > > > > > > > > > notwithstanding ! > > > > > > > > > Then make it so. If you know the One, you would know I'm > > > > > > > > telling > > > > > > > > you the truth. If it takes reflection, so be it. You have all > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > time you need and you can do nothing to gather any more to > > > > > > > > yourself. > > > > > > > > > > The crucial role of I, even to me, is stark, direct and > > > > > > > > > obvious. I'd > > > > > > > > > be much helped if I can reach within me, this I am forever > > > > > > > > > intimate > > > > > > > > > and immediately one with, and find something to clarify this > > > > > > > > > world > > > > > > > > > within I am faced with, lends me the courage to step up on to > > > > > > > > > doing > > > > > > > > > what I need to, and strengthen me for the vicious > > > > > > > > > consequences I might > > > > > > > > > face for my conduct. I'd like me to help myself, empower > > > > > > > > > myself, and > > > > > > > > > others if I could. The One, God, Kingdom could help. But, if > > > > > > > > > they too > > > > > > > > > mean what they've laid down and value what I need to ( unto > > > > > > > > > others ... ), they'd converge on me, in my decision and my > > > > > > > > > action, > > > > > > > > > anyway. They'd be false if they did not, isn't it ? It is I > > > > > > > > > who must > > > > > > > > > act and live with the consequences, and it is ' I ' I must > > > > > > > > > summon > > > > > > > > > forth the strength and conviction from. > > > > > > > > > And you must, ultimately, know that it is THAT and not you. > > > > > > > > That > > > > > > > > Thou Art. I tell you nothing new, I only reinforce it. We > > > > > > > > each find > > > > > > > > the will within, of course, because there is no other. Whilst > > > > > > > > you may > > > > > > > > not like the taste of this medicine, perhaps you, were not in > > > > > > > > need of > > > > > > > > it. There are many ways to the One, but they all start and end > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the realisation that it is not 'us' but the One. That We Are. > > > > > > > > Each > > > > > > > > of us. Everyone. > > > > > > > > > > The other, practical and philosophical, aspect of your idea > > > > > > > > > is that it > > > > > > > > > has no place for all the events that do not manifest, happen, > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > excluded in favour of the one event that does at any space - > > > > > > > > > time > > > > > > > > > coordinate. What is that, Pat, all those other events that > > > > > > > > > were equal > > > > > > > > > or even better alternates that did not happen ? Where are > > > > > > > > > they ? Why > > > > > > > > > are they ? What happens to them ? Are they nothing, > > > > > > > > > meaningless, to > > > > > > > > > be purged away from within us ? > > > > > > > > > They belong to the set of things that did not happen, or the > > > > > > > > set of > > > > > > > > things that are not happening or the set of things that will not > > > > > > > > happen. They exist in the Mind of God, to which you have access > > > > > > > > through your consciousness, but they are not a part of > > > > > > > > space-time. > > > > > > > > Their existence is eternal in the Calabi-Yau. I have said this > > > > > > > > before, too, and was not comprehended. > > > > > > > > > > I am not looking for a ' pat ' response, Pat. But I do want > > > > > > > > > you to > > > > > > > > > appreciate these issues. Reality must spring from what is > > > > > > > > > real to us. > > > > > > > > > Rather, you should accept reality as it is. Reality springs > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the One, not from anything else, as there is nothing else. You > > > > > > > > make > > > > > > > > the same mistake in thinking that St. Anselm did by making the > > > > > > > > perceiver different than that which is perceived. This makes a > > > > > > > > division between you and the One. Know that all we say comes > > > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > > One, and with these words, I have NOT made the One a liar. > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 28, 1:16 pm, Pat <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 27 Aug, 18:37, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > " Try as you might, you will only ever perform one event > > > > > > > > > > > at any given > > > > > > > > > > > place/time." > > > > > > > > > > > > You mean, Pat, that we cannot move both our hands at the > > > > > > > > > > > same time, > > > > > > > > > > > causing two events at the same time ? > > > > > > > > > > > That's correct. Threy are separated by space-time not > > > > > > > > > > just by > > > > > > > > > > space. They are very close to one another, but they do not > > > > > > > > > > occupy the > > > > > > > > > > same space-time or you would perceive them as one. Time is > > > > > > > > > > joined to > > > > > > > > > > space and if you perceive a spatial difference, then you > > > > > > > > > > must admit a > > > > > > > > > > temporal one as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > From what I've seen in yoga, sports, talent and reality > > > > > > > > > > > show > > > > > > > > > > > programmes on television, I visualise people with the > > > > > > > > > > > ability to move > > > > > > > > > > > their two legs, mouth, -----, or sundry other appendages > > > > > > > > > > > at the same > > > > > > > > > > > time ! 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