On 28 Aug, 15:47, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hah Pat ohhh I do like you, you sneak you!
>
Well, I needed to speak to you in language you already accept. When
you realise that I'm not saying anything new, but, obnly reaffirming
that which you've already been told, perhaps you will believe.
> > > Yet Pat if I belive it, and by that I mean I do not belive what you
> > > have layed out for us, and this never changes for me then by your own
> > > system this must be true, by which I mean that it is correct for me
> > > not to place my belife in this system. It is my unfolding 'awarness'
> > > of the 'truth' that this idea is false, then in reality it must be so.
>
> > If you do not believe me and this never changes for you, then your
> > awareness has not increased to envelop the truth. Whilst it may well
> > be true that it is not correct for you to place your belief in my
> > system (by God's will), then, for you, you will have to find another
> > way. I have not stated that this is 'the only way to get to the
> > One'. Many paths lead to the One, and mine surely does.
>
> What I see from this Pat in essance is if you agree with me then you
> have found awareness of the truth, if you do not then the awarness you
> have is false.
>
Rather, if you have found awareness of the truth, you would agree with
me. Cart before the horse.
> > > Do you see what I'm getting at Pat?
>
> > I see that you are struggling with your concept of self. That is
> > extremely admirable. I've been there. When you lose yourself, you
> > will find your Self. And this is not a new teaching. Find it in:
>
> Yes I guess there may be some of that in it, that is I'll not deny
> that possibilty. I see it a bit differantly though, and I'll explain
> why after this.
>
> > One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being
> > Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Timeless One, Beyond
> > Birth, Self-Existent.
>
> > find it in:
>
> > Chant, and meditate on the One God, who permeates and pervades the
> > many beings of the whole Universe. God created it, and God spreads
> > through it everywhere. Everywhere I look, I see God. The Perfect Lord
> > is perfectly pervading and permeating the water, the land and the sky;
> > there is no place without Him."
>
> > —Guru Granth Sahib, Page 782
>
> This is part of the dogma of my own faith, as well you know, so I
> certianly agree with it. I agree with because I have examined it, I
> find it valid and true, but I do so realiseing that I have a choice to
> belive it or not.
>
> We have a saying in Sikh that goes:
>
> 'If you take 1 step towards God then God takes 1000 steps towards
> you'.
>
And what happens when you walk so far that you meet? I'll tell
you, while both of you walk on, there will only be God's footsteps in
the sand.
> Again choice. If I choose to submit my will to the will of God then
> God helps with that subbmision. Or if I surrender my will in favour
> of the will of God, allow God to move me according not to my will but
> God's then I become Gurmukh.
>
You just made the connection. Surrender your will in favour of the
will of God and become that Gurmukh:
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.
(SGGS p.1)
The self-willed manmukhs are polluted. They are filled with the
pollution of egotism, wickedness and desire.
Without the Shabad, this pollution is not washed off; through the
cycle of death and rebirth, they waste away in misery. Engrossed in
this transitory drama, they are not at home in either this world or
the next. (SGGS p.29)
When I am in my ego, then You are not with me. Now that You are with
me, there is no egotism within me.
The wind may raise up huge waves in the vast ocean, but they are just
water in water. (SGGS p. 657)
You don't really choose to submit, you realise that, in fact, you have
no choice BUT to submit to the will of God.
> There is nothing there that says God already has my will, that in fact
> I have none and all that I do wheter I choose to belive it or not is
> already the will of God. Choice is imminate throughout all religoin.
>
> So you see you and I Pat are almost reading from the same page, it
> seems that only our interpretation differs, hah that well know bugbear
> of holy scripture ummm?
>
Yup, and I was incredibly surprised last night as I read back
through the parables in the New Testamant how each one was saying
exactly what I'm saying. Keep struggling and wrestling!!
> > > As to my imagining them, surely it is not I but God that is doing
> > > that?
>
> > Yes. Absolutely. But do you believe that? Can you handle that?
> > Perhaps now you can understand how Jacob became Israel...through his
> > wrestling with God.
>
> No I don't belive that. Another part of Sikhi is the concept of
> Simran, that is trying to maintian constant meditation upon God, why
> would God meditate upon God's self?
>
Because there is only One. There is nothing ELSE for God to
meditate upon!
> All of the language used points towards us making the choice to follow
> Gods Hukam (command) or not, choice, choice choice. ;¬)
Except for that submission bit that makes you a gurmukh. But, of
course, this ties back to another conversation: you lose your
authority and you like your authority. But...can you take it with you?
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