Ahhh yes that does in fact help Vam. Similar to the Sikh idea of God being imminent throughout creation but also a being apart from it. funnily enough I often describe it as the body of God being the universe, and the spirit, or intelegence, or conciouness of God being apart form it. That is all that is matter is the body of God, and the conciousness of God is not in the realm of matter but spirit.
Yes I do understand this Vam. So then you claim that conciouness is a universal shared one, and that the I, or perhaps the Self resides in the mind or the brain? I disagree that we can know something without being able to express it BTW, we may not alway have the words, but you know we can paint a picture, speak in metaphor, or use any kind of art to convey what we mean. Indeed you could have merely said, I belive that conciusness resides not in the brain but in spirit. It's a good point though Vam, in the light of my own defintion of conciousness, I'll have to give it some pondering time On 10 Sep, 15:21, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > Did you miss this, Lee ... " pure, undifferentiated > consciousness." > > That is, one without forms ... without all forms ... all I and all > matter and beings and creatures and knowledge and thoughts and > emotions and desires and events and effort or action. > > At this point, you may disagree with the perspective or find it > without meaning for yourself. But there's nothing I could add to what > I 've already stated in this regard. > > And, Lee, there are things one can know and not have the ability to > express it or express it beyond a point. > > On Sep 10, 6:38 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > Well Vam you must have the words to express the idea you have or how > > have you come to this knowledge. > > > I would ask you try as hard as you can to put your idea across to me, > > look at it as doing Seva! > > > On 10 Sep, 14:31, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > It's now about perspective, Lee ... our individual take. > > > > What you mean by consciousness is, to me, the " idea of individuated ' > > > I ' in consciousness." > > > > What you consider as ( full and final ) consciousness, the ' I,' is > > > in my perspective just a form in memory - ground - of - consciousness, > > > which again is in ... I have no terms to express ... pure, > > > undifferentiated consciousness. > > > > On Sep 10, 5:43 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > Ahh many thanks Vam. > > > > > So you seem to be saying two things here seemingly contradicting each > > > > other. > > > > > Yes you agree that without water then unconciouness can occour, but no > > > > it is not real 'conciousness' that you loose. which prompts the > > > > question, what do you define conciouness as? > > > > > I have offered my own definition right at the top there in what is > > > > currently post #6, I have asid: > > > > > 'So I would say that I explain conciouness as a property of the > > > > phycial brain, and I would say that to be concioues means merely to > > > > know that you exist as an independant enterty, and can tell that there > > > > are others around who like wise exists as individual entities.' > > > > > Which shows a clear distinction between conciouness, and what it means > > > > to be concious. Would you agree or disagree with either of these? > > > > > To me if we use the definition above then lossing conciousness means > > > > to loose ones sense of oneself. Not as in dreaming, when we dream we > > > > are most often in our own dreams. I remember once the very first time > > > > I went to donate plasma. > > > > > I was on the machine and had been ther for abot 10 mins, I was reading > > > > a book and eating a chicken sandwhich, the nurse approached me, and I > > > > must have been looking a little white as I clearly remember her > > > > saying: > > > > > 'Are you alr...' > > > > > And then I lost conciousness, I fainted, I was only out for a few > > > > seconds(according to the nurse) but I remember nowt about being out. > > > > This is what I mean by lossing or falling into unconciousness. You > > > > mean something other than this? > > > > > On 10 Sep, 13:24, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I will answer the question. > > > > > > Q : " Do you belive that if you go without water for long enough you > > > > > will NOT fall into unconciousness ?" > > > > > > A : Yes, YOU ( the idea of individuated ' I ' in consciousness ) may > > > > > disappear, which is what I understand of your expression " fall(ing) > > > > > into unconsciousness." To a yogi, who is trained into dealing with > > > > > such experiential phenomena, it ( the ' I ' ) may not so disappear. > > > > > > I cannot be more clear than this. So, if you want more, you 'll have > > > > > to find it in your own understanding and realisation. That is what I > > > > > 'd suggested in my previous post. > > > > > > And yes, Lee, you are a nice chap ! > > > > > > On Sep 10, 4:43 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Sorry Vam, I think you are stalling here. > > > > > > > My questions to you have not been hard to figure out, I know I am > > > > > > dyslexic, but I am not stupid, I can't spell and my hand writing > > > > > > is, I > > > > > > can garentee you the worst you will see, but I do comprehend the > > > > > > English language, I do know how to write, I have phrased my > > > > > > questions > > > > > > in a way that there can be no misunderstandings between us. > > > > > > > You sir know exactly what page I am on, I aksed you a direct > > > > > > question, > > > > > > you answered, and I wanted double check that answer. Now when I > > > > > > attempt to do that, you give me rubbish about nails and hammers and > > > > > > advise me to go away and think a bit more. > > > > > > > I smell evasion Vam, however because I am a nice chap, I'll ask for > > > > > > that clarifcation again. > > > > > > > Do you belive that if you go without water for long enough you will > > > > > > NOT fall into unconciousness? > > > > > > > Now that is a very straight forward question, please do answer it. > > > > > > > On 10 Sep, 12:32, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > It seems you are lost, Lee ! Give yourself time, and perhaps some > > > > > > > more. You are attempting in a rush to nail down ' something,' as > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > your life depends on it, without catching hold of that which is > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > nailed and without the hammer with which to nail it. > > > > > > > > I advise you re - read my responses. I am implying distinctions > > > > > > > between consciousness, forms of perceptions arising from > > > > > > > consciousness > > > > > > > that we perceive, and the instruments of perception. > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you may specify what you are talking about, without > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > being on different pages / books ? > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 4:09 pm, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Okay let me get this right Vam, you say that if you go without > > > > > > > > water > > > > > > > > for long enough that you will NOT fall unconcious as > > > > > > > > conciouness does > > > > > > > > not reside in the brain? > > > > > > > > > On 10 Sep, 12:05, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yes. The phenomenon pertains to forms perceived and the > > > > > > > > > instruments of > > > > > > > > > perception ... senses and the mind. > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 3:49 pm, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So you do not think it possible that if a person goes > > > > > > > > > > without water > > > > > > > > > > for long enough that they will fall unconcious? > > > > > > > > > > > On 10 Sep, 11:40, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Consciousness, No. The forms perceived in consciousness, > > > > > > > > > > > Yes. The > > > > > > > > > > > functioning of instruments of perception, Yes. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 3:07 pm, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > That really has no bearing on the matter Vam. You > > > > > > > > > > > > admit that going > > > > > > > > > > > > without water affects concioussness, yes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > We all know how important water is in keeping the body > > > > > > > > > > > > working > > > > > > > > > > > > properly, yes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > We can certianly then infer that if conciousness is > > > > > > > > > > > > effected by a lack > > > > > > > > > > > > of water, as are all biological functions, then > > > > > > > > > > > > conciousness is a > > > > > > > > > > > > function of biology, yes or no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10 Sep, 10:41, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " conciousness must be part of the brain, must be > > > > > > > > > > > > > part of our biology > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise how would a lack of water for 30 days > > > > > > > > > > > > > affect it? " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Children are affected by lightening, even traumatised > > > > > > > > > > > > > by earthquakes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That does not mean children are born of lightening or > > > > > > > > > > > > > earthquakes, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lee ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 10, 2:35 pm, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Vam did you not notcie this bit: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > '(apart from our bodies dependancy upon it of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > course)' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now taking this and what you have said here then it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shows that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > conciousness must be part of the brain, must be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > part of our biology > > > > > > > > > > > > > > otherwise how would a lack of water for 30 days > > > > > > > > > > > > > > affect it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 9 Sep, 17:33, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try using your mind after 30 days of going > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > without water, Lee ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You'll understand how important water is to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > cognitive access to forms > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of consciousness. The last part was deliberately > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > expressed, as I do > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not believe that nothing has anything to with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > consciousness ( pure, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like space ) per se but only with forms perceived > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in consciousness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 9, 6:20 pm, "[email protected]" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Umm there seems some flaw here, now what is it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahhh yes! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I was to suggest that to manipulate where a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > car goes you need to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > use the stearing wheel, that sounds about right > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > yes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was to further say that a stearing wheel does > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > not in fact stear the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > car, it only manipulates where the car can be > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > steared, then maybe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you'll begin to see what is wrong with your > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > statement above? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we can manipulate our conciousness via the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > use of electricity and > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
