I agree about Paul.//Molly mentioned a story by D.H.Lawrence which I read a few years ago- "The Man Who Died".//I see the evolution of Christianity as a political move by Emperor Constantine. Also see "Julian" by Gore Vidal for a fictional version of the last gasp of Paganism.
On Oct 24, 8:01 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > Well that is one thing I have difficulty with as I see a lot of bad dogma > coming from Saul of Tarsus in his case I think it is someone reading into an > event far beyond what happened. After which he pursued his own agenda. From > what I have read and seen he was never an apostle. > > In looking over Jesus seminar material there is some thing I agree with like > : Jesus was an itinerant sage who shared meals with social outcasts. and > Jesus was arrested in Jerusalem and crucified by the Romans. > He was executed as a public nuisance, not for claiming to be the Son of God. > > I know that around 33 C.E. there was a solar eclipse that occurred over > Jerusalem. and that is provable. and if Jesus was crucified during this > event you probably had people scared beyond belief and they probably would > have been able to get Jesus off the cross before he died. face the reality > it would have taken time to heal. > > Because of the astrological event you have a prime event that could lead to > stories of the wildest imagination. I am sure the event would have been > talked about for many years afterwards,, and what an event to build your > religious fable afterwards. > > I just don't buy Saul of Tarsus. I think he is one of those who lead people > awy from the ideal of Jesus. > Allan > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I don't know about a curse, but the christian mystics see the Paul > > teachings as instructional in that we are all capable of becoming > > apostles of Christ, and all capable of Christ consciousness, and all > > capable of the resurrection, "where I and the father are one" or God > > consciousness. > > > Here is a link to some of the Neville Goddard lectures on the Paul > > material that I find interesting in this regard: > >http://www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl > > > On Oct 24, 2:21 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I can see I have massive amount of reading ahead ,, It always amazes me > > how > > > much I don't know. > > > Never thought of trying to disprove God.. some times the flip side of the > > > question is interesting.. > > > > there are amazing similarities in the bleives even in diverse cultures. > > > Allan > > > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 4:53 AM, archytas <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Logic, in as far as I admit to any, gets me only as far as that I > > > > cannot disprove god. History tells me humans have been inventing > > > > stuff that isn't true since before we have reliable record. God and > > > > prophet stories have remarkable similarity. Eye witness evidence is > > > > unreliable - most people are not good at it and most will go with > > > > whatever story someone else relates before them, and are very > > > > prejudiced. We are easily misled by sleight-of-hand. People lie to > > > > others and themselves. We all do this. > > > > Scientific theories are under-determined by evidence and change - > > > > often the evidence for later theories is available when other, less > > > > efficient and explanatory theories hold sway. Many theories cannot be > > > > disproved and scepticism about any knowledge cannot be disproved. > > > > Generally, for knowledge we proceed by minimised epistemic risk - not > > > > believing what we cannot prove and demonstrate. We seek to make our > > > > scientific knowledge reliable against all other knowledge. We can lay > > > > out where this leaves us. It's hard work and avoided by most. Many > > > > are not capable of it and need much more than what passes as education > > > > to achieve informed and reasonable decisions. I'd go as far as to say > > > > we are in need of a religion of this. > > > > > On 24 Oct, 02:52, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I always start by wondering what I would think if ordinary Joe told > > me > > > > > the stories and also about the way I am easily conned by magic before > > > > > (and often after) I see the way the trick is done. I'm also inclined > > > > > to think copying and plagiarism is rife and was then. I notice much > > > > > talk of heroes is elaborated, so why am I expected to think > > > > > differently of religious stuff. Lies, illusions and fantasies can be > > > > > found daily - some modern Freudians even say they don't help clients > > > > > find the truth even if this is what they are looking for, but offer a > > > > > better organisation of their fections (I'll leave this in memory of > > > > > Father Ted!). > > > > > Personally, I doubt Jesus is a historical figure - more likely there > > > > > were many. I'd say the key issue is how we come to believe what is > > > > > mostly snake oil (the satanic abuse scandals in the UK make > > > > > fascinating reading on how phoney experts from abroad can influence > > > > > apparently sane cops and social workers) and how we are so influenced > > > > > today. I have no problem with wandering cynics seeking to change > > > > > society, and like many Greeks before me, have a sign saying they are > > > > > welcome above my door. The question as to whether Jesus owned his > > > > > clothes is a good one whether one needs to believe in him as the son > > > > > of God or not. > > > > > > On 23 Oct, 23:02, Manfraco Frank the Elder <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi allan and others! > > > > > > Allan, your post could be very interesting for me and I am going to > > > > > > follow it very closely, I know I am not very learned like some of > > you; > > > > > > but I have got my own ideas or religious beliefs which need to be > > > > > > tuned in before I can express them more openly. I am sure that if > > one > > > > > > takes away parts of the stories which only embellish the gospels it > > > > > > may have very different meanings; but you have to be very careful > > > > > > about that if you believe in anything at all; you see you have to > > defy > > > > > > your own religious beliefs and be strong enough to change the > > gospel. > > > > > > Please, read the very end of the Bible, where there is a sort of > > curse > > > > > > if anyone changes anything. Are you willing to chance that? > > > > > > Send you all my regards > > > > > > Manfraco > > > > > > > On Oct 24, 4:57 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have often wondered what the new testament of the bible would > > be > > > > like if > > > > > > > you removed the parts that are in reality are made up short > > stories > > > > used to > > > > > > > sell a bill of goods. An example(s) being the nativity stories, > > the > > > > > > > resurrection (misunderstood,) the writings of Saul Of Tarsus > > the > > > > book of > > > > > > > revelations. to name a few > > > > > > > > I wonder if a book (it would probably be very short) getting rid > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > exact interpretation but rather trying to expressed express the > > ideas > > > > that > > > > > > > Jesus the man best wanted to express. I look at our group and > > the > > > > atheists > > > > > > > and agnostics have a very valuable role in working out that > > validity > > > > of what > > > > > > > is being said. There is a definite need to counter balance my > > own > > > > beliefs > > > > > > > and those of other fanatics. > > > > > > > > To tell the truth this would be a total dream for me. There is an > > > > event > > > > > > > astronomically that can be dated like a total solar eclipse over > > > > Jerusalem > > > > > > > in 33 CE. I do know that there are religious fanatics in the > > > > Philippines > > > > > > > that are crucified (literally) and they regularly survive it. I > > think > > > > these > > > > > > > things need to be taken into account, from what I understand it > > > > actually > > > > > > > takes several days to die that way. > > > > > > > > Here I have to admit I am jealous of the sheer enlightenment of > > > > spiritual > > > > > > > knowledge Francis and other members of this group possess. I am > > > > hoping they > > > > > > > will take to this idea. > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > ) > > > > > > > I_D Allan > > > > -- > > > ( > > > ) > > > I_D Allan > > -- > ( > ) > I_D Allan- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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