I've said this before, but it seems right to raise it again. There's a real predicament being faced by liberalism in Britain, and maybe other western nations too. Integration of other cultures -- and by association, their religions -- into our society is overwhelmingly been thought of as a good thing. I still think it is, too. However, the point we've already reach is that liberalism is now encouraging ghetto-ism and bubble communities in Britain where English is not only a second language, it's sometimes not spoken at all. The latter is my concern. I can usually, with sufficient pointing, broken English, and a little French/Chinese/Indian, buy what I'm after on Brick Lane's market, but I'm not sure this works for everyone wanting to buy a pair of pants from Marks & Spencer (for example).
The liberalism of contemporary Britain is lost, or doesn't know where to draw the line, or has maybe become nihilistic: it is now giving oxygen to decidedly illiberal views. The BNP, Hasidic Jewish communities, and Sharia-touting Muslims are pertinent examples of a liberal end-game which might be unwelcome or unexpected. Faith schools are just the start of things. Maybe we really do need a citizen's charter -- or a bill or rights -- enshrining some fundamental cultural British principles. Friends in Dubai bemoan their lack of access to YouTube, eBay, and decent pornography. These strike me as important human rights and we should probably write them down somewhere. Ian 2009/12/7 archytas <[email protected]> > I'm reminded of something Ian raised quite a long time ago. In short > the Islamisation of the Labour Party. One really wants to be > influenced by other cultures. Yet not in moving backwards to > religious law or the maltreatment of women and so on. In many ways I > want to see more celebration of the Enlightenment, but feel we have > ended up with a very drab version. The hold of organised religion is > something I would only ever want to break, yet we need something to > organise society, at least at a level of structuring individual > freedom. What doesn't work is that kind of 'tolerant relativism' in > which any interests go. > Einstein's work can be seen as a radical restructuring of the > kinematics underlying the whole of physics. By metaphor, I think of > secular society like this - as the essential component in the working > freedom of daily living. The 'democracy of the vote' seems a poor > enabling model of this. We can rig votes. If we were to believe the > Daily Mail (god forbid!), the Labour Party have gerrymandered the > whole constituency through immigration and multi-culturalism. One > doesn't need to go that far to see problems with the way we vote and > what influences it. > > There have been religions, like the Shakers and the Cathars who sought > to limit population (and there are many examples in anthropology) and > at some point we have to recognise freedom is not unlimited and that > some choices we have need to be in stark relief. I find it very > distasteful even to think of having to tell people I don't approve of > their religions or religious buildings - yet the silencing of this > through political and other forms of mannered correctness is worse. > There are slippery slopes, but I think we have to ski on them. > > I'm not sure that Islam has changed less than Xtianity. It may be > that Xtian populations have been better educated to see through the > nonsense. Interpretations of Islam vary massively - most Muslims are > Sunni and not at all Arabic. There are very peaceful versions, > singing versions (apologies to Sufis - but their hospitality was > awesome) and break aways like the B'hai. Much of what we see as > Muslim in the West is tribal. Many in the places Ian mentions above > have told me they want more modernisation but fear the grass roots and > Mullah-power. There is plenty of scholarly talk of this. Francis > will know a great deal more, I would guess. > > Most political reaction I've seen in the UK (Question Time and other > holy programmes) has been politically correct. The whole idea of > plebiscites scares such people to death. I think all this merely > indicates how little democracy we have. We may quickly think the > banning of minarets is bad (or churches), but we give little thought > to why we are so anxious to stop the BNP expressing its views and do > not see this as very similar. > > I will be in an Islamic home later this week discussing police > failures to protect them from racism. The children attend mainstream > schools, there is a drink problem in the family and all in all they > are more 'English' than I would want to be. I've been a guest at the > Mosque, but although I was treated with courtesy, Sue was not > invited. Some of the teaching going on there is dreadful - not > terrorism but sexism. I tend towards thoughts that we lack a secular > equivalent of some of the better things on other and the collectivism. > > On 7 Dec, 08:51, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > 2009/12/6 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > > > > And it continues...we will find out very soon if there can be peaceful > > > coexistence. > > > > >http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/men-sought-to-kill-woman-for-a. > .. > > > > > There will have to either be a "Great Schism" in the Muslim Society at > > > large, or it may very likely end up as the secular world vs. the > government > > > world. I'm pulling for a Muslim Reformation. > > > > Sadly, I see a Reformation as pretty unlikely. Compared to Christianity > and > > its many forms, Islam is fairly unchanged throughout the centuries; even > to > > the extent that the Qu'ran can, they say, only truly be understood in its > > original Arabic. That's really part of Islam's strength. > > > > Instead of a Reformation, I think we'll continue to see a steady and > > increasing apostasy and cultural liberalisation like that seen in the > Gulf > > states of Bahrain, Dubai, Qatar, etc. These places, in order to do global > > business, have become somewhat westernised. Although, we should > definitely > > stress the relativeness. A friend of mine who lives in Dubai needed to > prove > > she had her husband's permission to get a driving license, for example. > > > > Ian > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
