*laughing* Go on, my American friend, correct your ultimate point you made earlier. We call that process learning over here. I don't see a progression in your addition though. From 6 to 5 you're going backwards, darling.
On 4 Dez., 17:28, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Allow me to correct my semantics: > > "It is inaccurate in formulating a world view of the political and social > impacts of a religion to separate the ideology of the religion from its > followers." > > Is that more clear, Gabs? Obviously you can, and Pat can, and we can all > write down 1+1=65, but that would also be inaccurate. > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:22 AM, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > "The ultimate point, which I made earlier, is that you cannot seperate > > the ideology from the followers." - I can, Chris. Do think you could > > allow yourself to hear this when we converse? > > > On 4 Dez., 16:14, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Oh, excuse me for taking the word of the Muslim regarding the age: > > > >http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/mu... > > > > "Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234: > > > > Narrated Aisha: > > > > The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to > > Medina > > > and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and > > my > > > hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, > > came > > > to me wile II was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She > > > called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. > > She > > > caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was > > > breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some > > water >> > and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. > > There > > > in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes andAllah''s > > > Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they > > prepared > > > me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the > > > forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a > > girl > > > of nine years of age." > > > > <http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm>That's Islamophobia or > > uneducated > > > how? Yes, know, Islammic scholars argue about the dates and the > > > interpretations. However, directly quoting from the Hadith is hardly any > > of > > > the traits you acribe,, and your ad hominem attempts to discredit my > > > position are eneath you. > > > > I note that you didn't respond to any of my other points. Were I to throw > > > your own argument back at you, I would say that you can't, because they > > > don't back up the conclusions you prefer. > > > > It's interesting how the presumption of motivation has been tossed around > > so > > > freely on these topics. One of my two best friends is Muslim. I have > > daily > > > proof that such a thing as a Moderate Muslim exists, much like a Moderate > > > Christian. This entire thread, however, seem hell bent (Ha!) on ignoring > > > that Religious Extremism (on which we both agree is the enemy) is FAR > > more > > > prevalent in the Muslim controlled world than it is in the secular west. > > > What's more, it seems to be a reasonable assertion that Islam by default > > > requests extremism in its followers. The ultimate point, which I made > > > earlier, is that you cannot seperate the ideology from the followers. > > > Compare the vast majorty of thhe Muslim world, including their movement > > into > > > Western societies, and you will see far more abrogations of human rights, > > > acts of church endorsed violence, and utter lack of tolerance than in any > > > other major religion in the world. > > > > Try to build a Christian Church in Saudi Arabia. Hell, Pat, try to even > > sell > > > your book there. Your desire for tolerance and understanding, and > > opposition > > > to perceived bigotry is admirable, but it seems to be cloaked in > > practical > > > ignorance. Pardon me if that comes off as a personal observation; ad > > hominem > > > is not my goal. > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Pat <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > On 3 Dec, 22:10, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > One more point regarding the "Moral High Ground": > > > > > > Mohammed married Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated > > that > > > > > marriag when shhe was nine years old. > > > > > She was betrothed at about age six, but was 'married' at about age > > > > ten. The consummation wasn't for another 2 to 4 years--certainly > > > > after menarche. She came to his chamber and asked for him to come to > > > > hers. Therefore, SHE instigated the consummation. He would not have > > > > had it any other way. So, if your wife asks for sex, are you to > > > > refuse her? If she wants it, she'll find it; and if you don't give it > > > > to her, you force her to commit adultery. > > > > > > Now, tell me again about the moral high ground part, while I meditate > > on > > > > the > > > > > example of pedophilia Mohammed set. > > > > > Your example is out of context, not fully educated ON the subject and > > > > is rie with IIslamophobic predispositions. As you don't tell the > > > > WHOLE story (you can't, as it wouldn't back up theconclusions you > > > > prefer), you're quite content with your ignorance. Marrying young was > > > > rather traditional in those days. In fact, in the pagan-Arabs, it was > > > > often the case that children would be betrothed before they were > > > > born. Aisha had every opportunity to not agree to the marriage (i.e., > > > > the marriage was not a forced marriage), as the Prophet requires that > > > > women have the right to refuse to marry if they feel they would be > > > > unhappy and he ended the practice of betrothal before birth among the > > > > Arabs. Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, Muhammed's closest friend, > > > > and had known Muhammed all her life and loved him because he was a > > > > inddand cring man wwho had always treated her with great cae and > > > > respect. For several years, they didn't even live under the same > > > > roof, with Aisha in Mecca and Muhammed in Medina (Yathrib). Once she > > > > had moved to Medina, she had her own quarters which Muhammed would not > > > enter r without herequestst. So, this 'pedophilia' you mention is just > > > > ignorant Islamophob and, inin human terms, about as uncommon as 14- > > > > year old girls falling pregnant in today's world. With thexception > > > > > that the modern girl probably isn't married and, therefore, has no > > > > legal way of protecting the provision for such children. Meditate on > > > > THAT, if you're fair. > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Pat <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On 2 Dec, 16:57, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Muslims will be conquered by the Chinese, perhaps. The only other > > > > > > > solut is to to level their countries like we did Germany and > > Japan- > > > > > > > who, at least, were industrialized. The only thing Islam has > > going > > > > for > > > > > > > it are oil deposits in various countries. But we have water. > > > > > > > "The only thing Islam has going for it are oil deposits in various > > > > > > countries." > > > > > > > I take it, from that, that you have never read the Qur'an. > > The > > > > > > main gist of it (Islam/the Qur'an) is that mankind should not > > oppress > > > > > > one another and that we should e for or the orphans and elderly and > > > > > > the poor treateat all individuals with respect. Much of the > > > > > > remainder is outlining examples of previous peoples who did NOT act > > > > > > that way and reminding the reader of how those peoples were > > > > > > destroyed. Also, there's a fair amount of instructions on how to > > > > > > maintain women's rights to inheritance and their right to be > > heard-- > > > > > > things that, in the West, women didn't get until the latter part of > > > > > > the 19th Century/early 20th century. I.e., the Qur'an was, with > > > > > > respect to women's rights, some 1300 years ahead of its time. > > > > > > The problemomcome in when West sn society demands itsght to to be > > > > > > intoxicated and irascible to the point of outright destructive > > > > > > behaviour afterwards and the duty to oppress one another through > > usury > > > > > > and other ways (in the name of 'Survival of the Fittest', a > > euphemism > > > > > > for maintaining that animal instincts are the way forward!!) and > > > > > > Muslims don't understand why Western, supposedly civilised people, > > > > > > demand the right to act like idiots, screw up the environment and > > take > > > > > > as much as is possible from those who have the least. Muslims > > don't > > > > > > view that as civilised behaviour. > > > > > > With respect to the oil, it won't always be there, as the West > > is > > > > > > using it up and fouling the Earth with its waste products. After > > the > > > > > > oil is gone, what Islam will be left with is what they have had for > > > > > > 1400+ years...the moral high ground. > > > > > > > > On Dec 2, 10:45 am, fran the man <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > In a referendum last Sunday, 57.5% of the Swiss voted to ban > > > > minarets. > > > > > > > > > As right-wing populistheereered and liberal multi-culturalists > > were > > > > > > > > shocked, the Swiss decision reflects a deep problem for western > > > > > > > > democracies, particularly in Europe. How do you integrate a >> > religious > > > > > > > > > culture into a pluralist society, which has mutual tolerance as > > one > > > > of > > > > > > > > its basic principles, when significant groups in that culture > > > > reject > > > > > > > > many principles of that society which is trying to integrate > > them? > > > > Is > > > > > > > > this a signal that the meeting between western societies and > > Islam > > > > > > > > leads to irreconcilable differences? Or is the Swiss vote > > > > basically, > > > > > > > > or partly, an expression of deep-seated racism and subjective > > views > > > > of > > > > > > > > cultural superiority? > > > > > > > > > Some background: > > ... > > Erfahren Sie mehr » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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