The same thing is happening in the USA.//The minaret has become a symbol of violence- like the Nazi swastika.
On Dec 7, 6:31 am, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > I've said this before, but it seems right to raise it again. > > There's a real predicament being faced by liberalism in Britain, and maybe > other western nations too. Integration of other cultures -- and by > association, their religions -- into our society is overwhelmingly been > thought of as a good thing. I still think it is, too. However, the point > we've already reach is that liberalism is now encouraging ghetto-ism and > bubble communities in Britain where English is not only a second language, > it's sometimes not spoken at all. The latter is my concern. I can usually, > with sufficient pointing, broken English, and a little > French/Chinese/Indian, buy what I'm after on Brick Lane's market, but I'm > not sure this works for everyone wanting to buy a pair of pants from Marks & > Spencer (for example). > > The liberalism of contemporary Britain is lost, or doesn't know where to > draw the line, or has maybe become nihilistic: it is now giving oxygen to > decidedly illiberal views. The BNP, Hasidic Jewish communities, and > Sharia-touting Muslims are pertinent examples of a liberal end-game which > might be unwelcome or unexpected. Faith schools are just the start of > things. > > Maybe we really do need a citizen's charter -- or a bill or rights -- > enshrining some fundamental cultural British principles. Friends in Dubai > bemoan their lack of access to YouTube, eBay, and decent pornography. These > strike me as important human rights and we should probably write them down > somewhere. > > Ian > > 2009/12/7 archytas <[email protected]> > > > > > I'm reminded of something Ian raised quite a long time ago. In short > > the Islamisation of the Labour Party. One really wants to be > > influenced by other cultures. Yet not in moving backwards to > > religious law or the maltreatment of women and so on. In many ways I > > want to see more celebration of the Enlightenment, but feel we have > > ended up with a very drab version. The hold of organised religion is > > something I would only ever want to break, yet we need something to > > organise society, at least at a level of structuring individual > > freedom. What doesn't work is that kind of 'tolerant relativism' in > > which any interests go. > > Einstein's work can be seen as a radical restructuring of the > > kinematics underlying the whole of physics. By metaphor, I think of > > secular society like this - as the essential component in the working > > freedom of daily living. The 'democracy of the vote' seems a poor > > enabling model of this. We can rig votes. If we were to believe the > > Daily Mail (god forbid!), the Labour Party have gerrymandered the > > whole constituency through immigration and multi-culturalism. One > > doesn't need to go that far to see problems with the way we vote and > > what influences it. > > > There have been religions, like the Shakers and the Cathars who sought > > to limit population (and there are many examples in anthropology) and > > at some point we have to recognise freedom is not unlimited and that > > some choices we have need to be in stark relief. I find it very > > distasteful even to think of having to tell people I don't approve of > > their religions or religious buildings - yet the silencing of this > > through political and other forms of mannered correctness is worse. > > There are slippery slopes, but I think we have to ski on them. > > > I'm not sure that Islam has changed less than Xtianity. It may be > > that Xtian populations have been better educated to see through the > > nonsense. Interpretations of Islam vary massively - most Muslims are > > Sunni and not at all Arabic. There are very peaceful versions, > > singing versions (apologies to Sufis - but their hospitality was > > awesome) and break aways like the B'hai. Much of what we see as > > Muslim in the West is tribal. Many in the places Ian mentions above > > have told me they want more modernisation but fear the grass roots and > > Mullah-power. There is plenty of scholarly talk of this. Francis > > will know a great deal more, I would guess. > > > Most political reaction I've seen in the UK (Question Time and other > > holy programmes) has been politically correct. The whole idea of > > plebiscites scares such people to death. I think all this merely > > indicates how little democracy we have. We may quickly think the > > banning of minarets is bad (or churches), but we give little thought > > to why we are so anxious to stop the BNP expressing its views and do > > not see this as very similar. > > > I will be in an Islamic home later this week discussing police > > failures to protect them from racism. The children attend mainstream > > schools, there is a drink problem in the family and all in all they > > are more 'English' than I would want to be. I've been a guest at the > > Mosque, but although I was treated with courtesy, Sue was not > > invited. Some of the teaching going on there is dreadful - not > > terrorism but sexism. I tend towards thoughts that we lack a secular > > equivalent of some of the better things on other and the collectivism. > > > On 7 Dec, 08:51, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > 2009/12/6 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > > > > And it continues...we will find out very soon if there can be peaceful > > > > coexistence. > > > > >http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/men-sought-to-kill-woman-for-a. > > .. > > > > > There will have to either be a "Great Schism" in the Muslim Society at > > > > large, or it may very likely end up as the secular world vs. the > > government > > > > world. I'm pulling for a Muslim Reformation. > > > > Sadly, I see a Reformation as pretty unlikely. Compared to Christianity > > and > > > its many forms, Islam is fairly unchanged throughout the centuries; even > > to > > > the extent that the Qu'ran can, they say, only truly be understood in its > > > original Arabic. That's really part of Islam's strength. > > > > Instead of a Reformation, I think we'll continue to see a steady and > > > increasing apostasy and cultural liberalisation like that seen in the > > Gulf > > > states of Bahrain, Dubai, Qatar, etc. These places, in order to do global > > > business, have become somewhat westernised. Although, we should > > definitely > > > stress the relativeness. A friend of mine who lives in Dubai needed to > > prove > > > she had her husband's permission to get a driving license, for example. > > > > Ian > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
