Your last bit is simply true Vam. The outbreaks of killings around the world amongst peoples who have lived together for decades in apparent peace surely demonstrate that lip service or indoctrination are not enough. I believe we can transcend our biology, or at least channel its directions. This is just much more difficult than many understand. Many have learned only to show they are anti-racist, anti- sexist and the rest - they have not really worked on the basics of it all. Some of the nastiest racists are not those mouthing the wrong words, but hiding what they are even from themselves. We have a case going through court in the UK in which Orthodox Jews are contending that an automatic security light should be removed because it traps them in their flat on the Sabbath because it comes on if they do, thus breaching their rules on 'lighting fires'. The claim that religion somehow allows this kind of farce in law makes me sick. I do not believe religion should be allowed to interfere in society in any way and believe we make a serious mistake in inventing laws to protect on a religious or even racists basis. We should all be protected by an enforceable code of decency. If people want to live separately they should take the consequences of that and receive no support or concession other than a right to the limited privacy we all enjoy. These should not be public matters, though separatism should concern us because it is historically fractious. Children should go to the same schools and deep questions should be asked of those who want to do otherwise. We cannot allow some things and should not shy away from challenging them because of religion - sadly there already is a politically correct movement trying to stop the voicing of this concern.
On 12 Dec, 12:23, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > " ... we discount too quickly to racism (on any side) too quickly as > a rule." > > The kind of racism you may be speaking of, as I understand, is > biological - cultural. You might as well be discussing why we have > affiliation to our respective families. > > We can only shed such prejudices through an outgrowing process, not by > wishing away or mere indoctrination. > > On Dec 12, 3:23 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > My grandson is sleeping over at a Muslim house tonight. I have much in > > common with what Pat says - yet I agree with Slip - what is the real > > question here? There are miserable intolerants everywhere, including > > many well versed in political correctness. Living in the Middle East > > I found it very easy to sympathise with Muslim anti-western idiot > > capitalism and much of communal Islam. I do here for that matter. > > Pat's known me too long to think I'll be casting the PC remark in his > > direction - the question for me is why the hostilities that are around > > come about. Some of the answers lie in Gabby's 'fascism of the blue > > eye', but we discount too quickly to racism (on any side) too quickly > > as a rule. > > > On 11 Dec, 21:06, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > They don't make 'em like Ibn Rushd anymore... > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes > > > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 1:11 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > You make is sound so relaxing, Pat. I have to add that I do not know > > > > any Muslims and have never met any Muslims which may be one of the > > > > reasons for my apprehensions. However, it is not without any basis, > > > > ie; the Muslim Major Hasan seemed by "ALL" accounts to be one of the > > > > peace loving Muslim persons of whom you speak. Didn't people know him > > > > as such, wasn't he in the US Army? Didn't he shoot and kill US > > > > Soldiers? Was he a fundamentalist, a radical terrorist? > > > > Are we being duped is the real question, are you? > > > > > On Dec 11, 7:58 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 11 Dec, 07:04, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Religion is still driving it's wedge into the world. I'm beginning > > > > > > to > > > > > > become very wary of the intent of Muslim Immigrants. Little seeds > > > > > > are > > > > > > being planted around the world and Muslim populations are growing. > > > > > > With the shootings by Muslim Hasan in Fort Hood Texas and now the > > > > > > Arrest of 5 Muslim teenagers in Pakistan who supposedly are > > > > > > American, > > > > > > I reject the idea that they were ever American, I'm suspect that > > > > > > Muslims around the world are simply carrying out a long term > > > > > > infiltration tactic without any desire for citizenship but only for > > > > > > the goal of the Muslim world. It may take 50 more years but by then > > > > > > the Muslim population will be very imposing. > > > > > > What do you think of all this Muslim turmoil around the world? I > > > > > > know > > > > > > it's hard to be politically correct and non judgmental but history > > > > > > is > > > > > > littered with attempts at world domination. Truth is I'm beginning > > > > > > to > > > > > > get nervous and simply do not trust Muslims and wonder about their > > > > > > true motive. Is it just paranoia, I don't think so. > > > > > > Islam IS the fastest growing faith and has been for quite some time. > > > > > This is, mostly, due to the fact that Muslims have Muslim children > > > > > (funnily enough) and the growth rate is more down to general > > > > > population growth than conversion rates; that said, there are more and > > > > > more converts as well. So why, then, is that? [that's not a > > > > > rhetorical question but an invitation to fully investigate Islam for > > > > > yourself to discover what there is about it that might attract people > > > > > TO it.] > > > > > What is it about Islam that worries you? The religion itself does not > > > > > promote terrorism, but change through dialogue, so the 'terrorists' > > > > > aren't REALLY 'true Muslims'--they are apostates who have been led > > > > > astray--they are as brainwashed as any follower of Jim Jones or David > > > > > Koresh. Don't be afraid of Muslims--they are simply people who > > > > > acknowledge that it is God that runs the show here on Earth (and, as > > > > > far as I can tell, that is a correct belief!). Rather, be afraid of > > > > > fundamentalism of any variety, for it is fundamentalism--that branch > > > > > of any faith that says, "We're correct and everyone else needs to die > > > > > so that only those that think correctly are left." That was never the > > > > > premiss of Islam, as the Qur'an itself states that religion should not > > > > > be forced on anyone. These fundamentalists feed on our fears. So, > > > > > you're playing into their hands with your mistrust of Muslims, as they > > > > > are, for the vast majority, just like everyone else on the planet-- > > > > > trying to just get through another day. Take each one as they present > > > > > themselves to you. If you want to react in a Christian fashion > > > > > towards them, then that would be: Judge not, lest ye be judged. > > > > > Muslims worship God by being mindful of Him in many ways throughout > > > > > the day, and Jesus said that loving God was the greatest commandment. > > > > > So they follow that teaching--probably beter than most Westerners who > > > > > consider themselves Christian. The second greates commandment > > > > > (according to Jesus) was "to love your neighbour as yourself". But > > > > > you are mistrusting/distrusting people and the only thing you may know > > > > > about them is that they are Muslim. How fair is that? > > > > > It's my belief that God will judge us by certain standards. Some of > > > > > those standards we set ourselves. That is, he will judge us as fairly > > > > > as we have judged others. In that way, injustice can always be > > > > > redressed in the Hereafter. This life is only a test for an eternal > > > > > existence. Don't let the fundamentalists of ANY faith turn you > > > > > against other believers of that faith who are NOT fundamentalists. It > > > > > could be a dangerous practice; after all, Jesus warned: judge not, > > > > > lest ye be judged (similarly). Don't play into the hands of the > > > > > fundamentalists by fearing and mis/distrusting Muslims, as that is > > > > > what they hope will be the divisive reaction that grants them the > > > > > grounds for claiming general bias. > > > > > I encounter Muslims on a daily basis. At work, at the local shop, in > > > > > taxis, etc. And NONE of them have ever acted in a way that I would > > > > > consider problematic. What makes ME nervous is people taking a > > > > > dislike to people they don't know simply because they are different-- > > > > > when, really, we are ALL different; because it's THAT attitude that > > > > > both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are hoping will bring us to > > > > > the all-glorious Armageddon that they both think they'll win. They > > > > > can't BOTH be right; but, they could both be wrong, in that there ARE > > > > > no winners of Armageddon. > > > > > > If, as you are tending towards, you think that Muslims will out-number > > > > > the rest of the population in the foreseeable future, then that will > > > > > change the world. But that doesn't, of necessity, mean that that > > > > > change would be bad. It all comes down to implementation. And there > > > > > are Islamic prophecies that indicate that, before Islam does become > > > > > the predominant religion on Earth, it will be 'set back onto the > > > > > straight path' by a 'Clarifier', the Mahdi, or Al-Qa'im. Muslims > > > > > await this individual because they know that there are corrections (to > > > > > the practices of the faith) that need to be made (the abolition of > > > > > female circumcision throughout Islamic Africa would be the first thing > > > > > that leaps out in my mind...but there is a longer list). So wait WITH > > > > > them and watch out FOR him, for it is just THAT kind of individual > > > > > that needs to come onto the world scene fairly soon, as the numbers, > > > > > as you point out, are nearing the mark. > > > > > > PS 'Chanukkah Tovah' for all the Jewish readers out there!! > > > > > > > Excerpt: > > > > > > The citizens of the United States and Canada, as well as many within > > > > > > various echelons of law enforcement, might be surprised to learn > > > > > > that > > > > > > active paramilitary training of Islamic terrorists, who are focused > > > > > > on > > > > > > bringing jihad or holy war into America on a large scale, are > > > > > > currently operating in the United States and Canada. In fact, they > > > > > > have existed inside North America since at least 1980. > > > > > > >http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover061107h.htm > > > > > > > The Islamic "jihadist" Army in our Midst > > > > > > The most astute researchers of Islamic terrorist activities might > > > > > > believe that the so-called "Virginia jihad network," often referred > > > > > > to > > > > > > as the "paintball jihad network," was the first paramilitary > > > > > > training > > > > > > of its kind in America. The "paintball jihad network" consisted of > > > > > > nearly a dozen Muslim men, including Randall "Ismail" Royer, an > > > > > > American convert to Islam and former official of the Council on > > > > > > American Islamic Relations (CAIR), who honed their combat skills > > > > > > through the use of paintball gun exercises with other like-minded > > > > > > Muslims, according to the federal indictment and his subsequent > > > > > > conviction. Others might cite the case of Ernest James UJAAMA, a/k/a > > > > > > Bilal AHMED, (a Muslim convert born James Earnest Thompson), who, > > > > > > according to court documents, attempted to set up an > > > > > > Afghanistan-style > > > > > > terrorist training camp near Bly, Oregon in 1999 as a precursor to > > > > > > physical jihad training in America. > > ... > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
